The Other McCain

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Sex Trouble: Radical Feminism and the Long Shadow of the ‘Lavender Menace’

Posted on | July 14, 2014 | 240 Comments

“The supersensitivity of the [Women’s Liberation] movement to the lesbian issue, and the existence of a few militant lesbians within the movement, once prompted [NOW founder Betty] Friedan herself to grouse about ‘the lavender menace’ that was threatening to warp the image of women’s rights.”
Susan Brownmiller, New York Times, March 15, 1970 (quoted in In Our Time: Memoir of a Revolution)

“What is a lesbian? A lesbian is the rage of all women condensed to the point of explosion. …
“It should first be understood that lesbianism … is a category of behavior possible only in a sexist society characterized by rigid sex roles and dominated by male supremacy. … In a society in which men do not oppress women, and sexual expression is allowed to follow feelings, the categories of homosexuality and heterosexuality would disappear.”

Artemis March, et al., “The Woman Identified Woman,” May 1970

No one can honestly discuss feminism without addressing the enduring question, “Which feminism are you talking about?” From its inception as the Women’s Liberation movement of the 1960s and ’70s, modern feminism has been fractured by schisms that its would-be mainstream leaders have sought to conceal from the larger public.

Many women who today identify themselves as feminists have never examined the history of these conflicts and are unfamiliar with the militant personalities and radical ideologies that have influenced feminism for the past half-century. When confronted with the extremist rhetoric of feminists — vehement denunciation of males, condemnation of heterosexuality, claims that men (collectively) oppress and victimize women (collectively) in ways comparable to the Holocaust — the average woman is understandably startled and, if she thinks of herself as a feminist, she quickly shifts into denial mode. The anti-male passage you’ve just quoted to her is an aberration, an anomaly, an expression of fringe beliefs that does not represent the feminism that she endorses. She is not a Marxist, she is not a lesbian or a man-hater, she is not the kind of pro-abortion fanatic who views motherhood as male-imposed tyranny. The question thus arises: Is she actually a feminist?

Any honest person who undertakes an in-depth study of modern feminism, from its inception inside the 1960s New Left to its institutionalization within Women’s Studies departments at universities, will understand that without the influence of radicals — militant haters of capitalism and Christianity, angry lesbians who view all males as a sort of malignant disease, deranged women who can’t distinguish between political grievances and their own mental illnesses — there probably never would have been a feminist movement at all. Yet no matter how many examples of radical feminism we may cite, or how crucial the connection between ideological extremism and the rhetoric of “mainstream” feminists, many women (and men) will continue to insist that the evidence offered is irrelevant to the kind of feminism they endorse and advocate.

Unthinking acceptance of simple slogans, a superficial discourse built around glittering generalities — “equality,” “choice,” etc. — is not an ideology, nor could this bland kind of feminism ever have been enough to inspire an enduring political movement. Even while they ignore the chasm between radical theory and their own feminism, however, women seem surprised to find that real life contradicts even the least controversial understanding of “sexual equality”:

I have always found it hard and confusing to be both a feminist and happily married. Why? Because in a good marriage, where both parties are equally happy, no one is keeping score. Feminists emphasize equality of roles, but in a real life marriage, this isn’t always realistic.

If women make equality the measure of their happiness, they are hopelessly doomed to misery in real life, if their ambitions include men, marriage and motherhood. Somewhere, there may be a perfect Feminist Man acceptable to the egalitarian ideal, but feminists generally mock that possibility. “Not My Nigel” is feminist shorthand for the claims of women that their man — their boyfriend, their husband, their son — does not engage in the sexist oppression that feminist rhetoric attributes to the male-dominated system of patriarchy. Feminists scorn the idea that any man can be an exception to their general condemnation of men, so that the acronym NAMALT (“Not All Men Are Like That”) is deployed to ridicule any woman who takes offense at feminist claims about the ubiquitous villainy of males.

Even if a woman is certain that she herself is not being victimized by her husband, even if she refuses to accept the claim that all men are violent oppressors complicit in “rape culture,” however, she will find that the routine conflicts and misfortunes of her everyday life are characterized by feminists as proof of women’s universal victimhood. If she heeds the voices of feminism, she will mentally magnify her problems into evidence of a pervasive pattern, and view the men in her life — her husband, her father, her male co-workers — as participants in, and beneficiaries of, the system of “male supremacy” denounced in the 1970 manifesto, “The Woman-Identified Woman”:

Lesbian is a label invented by the Man to throw at any woman who dares to be his equal, who dares to challenge his prerogatives . . . who dares to assert the primacy of her own needs. To have the label applied to people active in women’s liberation is just the most recent instance of a long history. . . For in this sexist society, for a woman to be independent means she can’t be a woman — she must be a dyke. That in itself should tell us where women are at. It says as clearly as can be said: women and person are contradictory terms. For a lesbian is not considered a “real woman.” . . . [W]hen you strip off all the packaging, you must finally realize that the essence of being a “woman” is to get fucked by men.

Is this brief excerpt taken out of context? Read the whole thing and see for yourself if the “context” attenuates the meaning. Nor can this manifesto be dismissed as an obscure fringe document irrelevant to feminist history. It was published less than two months after Susan Brownmiller’s important New York Times article about the nascent Women’s Liberation movement had mentioned the effort of Betty Friedan to prevent “the lesbian issue” from “warp[ing] the image” of feminism. Brownmiller herself dismissed Friedan’s fears, playing on the phrase “red herring” to mock the “Lavender Menace” as a “lavender herring,” only to see that clever jest thrown back in her face by the collective that published its manifesto as “Radicalesbians.”

Well,” replies the defender of “mainstream” feminism, “those lesbians were just a bunch of extremist kooks nobody ever heard of.”

Except they weren’t, and their kooky extremism did not hinder their influence. The “Radicalesbians” collective included Rita Mae Brown, a former staffer at Friedan’s National Organization for Women. In January 1970, Brown and another lesbian NOW staffer, Michela Griffo, resigned and joined forces with Ellen Shumsky and Artemis March (neé March Hoffman) to form a lesbian faction within the male-dominated Gay Liberation Front. In a series of meetings in Brown’s apartment, they formed a conspiracy to stage a disruptive protest as the Second Congress to Unite Women in May 1970. “The Woman-Identified Woman” was a statement largely written by March on behalf of the collective, and no one can say that either the manifesto or its authors were “fringe” obscurities. Artemis March, Ph.D., taught at Harvard University and was awarded a fellowship at the Radcliffe Institute, without ever repudiating her militant anti-male ideology (here’s an example from 2010). Rita Mae Brown became a best-selling author whose 1973 lesbian novel The Rubyfruit Jungle is often featured in high school reading lists (e.g., Belmont High School in Massachusetts). Ellen Shumsky became a psychotherapist; her 2009 book, Portrait of a Decade 1968-1978, featured an introduction by lesbian historian Flavia Rando. Michela Griffo became an artist and was recently a featured Gay Pride Month speaker in Boston.

The authors of “The Woman-Identified Woman” were not as famous as celebrity feminists like Gloria Steinem, but even if they were completely unknown, their radical manifesto would continue to be influential, because it is routinely included in the curricula of Women’s Studies courses across the United States: Michigan State University, the University of Oregon, the University of Massachusetts, and the University of Minnesota, to name a few. It is not difficult to trace the influence of this early radicalism down to the present day, or to cite similarly influential treatises — e.g.,  “Lesbians in Revolt” by Charlotte Bunch (1972) and “Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence” by Adrienne Rich (1980) — commonly included in the syllabi of Women’s Studies programs. Any attempt to separate this kind of explicitly anti-male/anti-heterosexual ideology from “mainstream” feminism would require us to argue that the most eminent academics in the field of Women’s Studies (including the lesbian editors of the widely used textbook Feminist Frontiers) are not “mainstream.”

Once we go beyond simplistic sloganeering about “equality” and “choice” to examine feminism as political philosophy — the theoretical understanding to which Ph.D.s devote their academic careers — we discover a worldview in which men and women are assumed to be implacable antagonists, where males are oppressors and women are their victims, and where heterosexuality is specifically condemned as the means by which this male-dominated system operates.

“But the hatred of women is a source of sexual pleasure for men in its own right. Intercourse appears to be the expression of that contempt in pure form, in the form of a sexed hierarchy; it requires no passion or heart because it is power without invention articulating the arrogance of those who do the fucking. Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of men’s contempt for women . . .”
Andrea Dworkin, Intercourse, 1987

“Fucking is a large part of how females are kept subordinated to males. It is a ritual enactment of that subordination which constantly reaffirms the fact of subordination and habituates both men and women to it, both in body and in imagination.”
Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality: Essays in Feminist Theory (1992)

“Male sexual violence against women and ‘normal’ heterosexual intercourse are essential to patriarchy because they establish the dominance of the penis over the vagina, and thus the power relations between the sexes. . . . Men’s sexual violence against women is the primary vehicle through which the dominance of the penis over the vagina is established.”
Dee Graham, Loving to Survive: Sexual Terror, Men’s Violence, and Women’s Lives (1994)

“Male supremacy is centered on the act of sexual intercourse, justified by heterosexual practice.”
Sheila Jeffreys, 2005

All these quotes are from authors and academics whose works are widely cited in feminist journals and included in Women’s Studies curricula. To say that these feminists are outside the “mainstream” is to invite the question of who has the authority to define feminism.

If lifelong activists and professors who have devoted their lives to feminism aren’t “mainstream,” who is? To understand this problem, consider the career of Charlotte Bunch.

Then and now: Charlotte Bunch (left) in the 1970s and (right) as Rutgers professor.

In 1968, Bunch was one of the organizers of the first national Women’s Liberation conference and in 1971 — after being seduced by Rita Mae Brown — she divorced her husband and became a radical lesbian separatist, publishing “Lesbians in Revolt” in January 1972:

In our society which defines all people and institutions for the benefit of the rich, white male, the Lesbian is in revolt. In revolt because she defines herself in terms of women and rejects the male definitions of how she should feel, act, look, and live. To be a Lesbian is to love oneself, woman, in a culture that denigrates and despises women. The Lesbian rejects male sexual/political domination; she defies his world, his social organization, his ideology, and his definition of her as inferior. Lesbianism puts women first while the society declares the male supreme. Lesbianism . . . politically conscious and organized . . . is central to destroying our sexist, racist, capitalist, imperialist system. . . .
The only way oppressed people end their oppression is by seizing power: People whose rule depends on the subordination of others do not voluntarily stop oppressing others. Our subordination is the basis of male power. . . .
Lesbianism is a threat to the ideological, political, personal, and economic basis of male supremacy. The Lesbian threatens the ideology of male supremacy by destroying the lie about female inferiority, weakness, passivity, and by denying women’s ‘innate’ need for men. . . .
Our rejection of heterosexual sex challenges male domination in its most individual and common form. We offer all women something better than submission to personal oppression. We offer the beginning of the end of collective and individual male supremacy. . . .
Lesbianism is the key to liberation and only women who cut their ties to male privilege can be trusted to remain serious in the struggle against male dominance.

Is that an extremist statement? Do most feminists disagree with Charlotte Bunch? Did her radical lesbianism cause her to be ostracized, marginalized and excluded from the feminist “mainstream”?

Au contraire! Charlotte Bunch became one of the most influential feminists in the world. She is a professor and founding director of the Center for Women’s Global Leadership at Rutgers University. She is a top advisor to the United Nations on women’s issues; she was inducted into the National Women’s Hall of Fame in October 1996; and in 1999, President Clinton bestowed on her the Eleanor Roosevelt Award for Human Rights. Let us ask an obvious question:

Q. If Bunch’s radical ideas are rejected by “mainstream” feminists, where are the books, articles and essays by leading feminists denouncing her as an irresponsible extremist?
A. There are no such denunciations, because the feminist movement endorses Bunch’s radical anti-male ideology.

How “mainstream” is Charlotte Bunch’s radicalism? In 2010, the Young Feminist Task Force promoted an International Women’s Day symposium where Professor Bunch was not only a featured speaker, but the agenda included a “Tribute to Charlotte Bunch” that included a preview of the film documentary Passionate Politics: The Life & Work of Charlotte Bunch. Her advocacy of “rejection of heterosexual sex” as a necessary means to ending “male supremacy” is therefore not radical feminism or extreme feminism, it is simply feminism.

Nevertheless, every time feminists complain about normal women who refuse to identify themselves as feminists, it is claimed that “the negative view of feminism” as being an anti-male lesbian advocacy movement is a false stereotype rooted in ignorance. The same feminists, meanwhile, insist that one cannot oppose their radical gay agenda “unless you are part of the extremely extreme extremist right wing.” One almost wonders if these feminists have ever read any feminist literature, or even if they are capable of comprehending the logic of their own words.

More than four decades after Artemis March and her radical comrades took up the banner of the “Lavender Menace,” their rhetoric condemning “rigid sex roles and . . . male supremacy” is more influential than ever. University faculty devoted to the study of “Gender Theory” reject the categories of masculinity and femininity. What most people understand as the natural traits and normal roles of the sexes are, according to the proponents of Gender Theory, an elaborate deception into which we have been brainwashed by the anti-female, anti-gay social system called heteronormative patriarchy.

Such intellectual jargon strikes the normal person as ludicrous, yet it is taken so seriously on university campuses that no one who aspires to employment in academia would dare treat it as a joke.

The ferocity of campus feminists, most notoriously demonstrated by their destruction of Lawrence Summer’s tenure as president of Harvard University, imposes a fearful silence within the world of higher education. Unaccustomed to criticism or opposition, academic feminists are emboldened to speak in terms of hateful extremism. Seldom does anyone even notice the poisonous quality of this rhetoric, much less object to it. One of the rare critics, Professor Daphne Patai, spent a decade teaching Women’s Studies at the University of Massachusetts, and exposed the problem in her 1998 book Heterophobia: Sexual Harassment and the Future of Feminism:

[M]uch of the zealotry we are seeing in the university (and out of it) on the issue of sexual harassment should be construed as an attack, quite specifically, not only on men but on heterosexuality itself. … [M]en are the main target and … the cessation of heterosexual expression — or even interest — seems to be the chief agenda of many feminists. …
[T]he standard feminist critique … sees private heterosexual life, and heterosexual interaction in school and workplace, as a patriarchal imposition that must be resisted and transformed.

What Professor Patai recognized was that feminism’s rhetoric about sexual harassment was focused entirely on condemning male expressions of heterosexual interest in women. This was a manifestation of the complaint in Artemis March’s lesbian manifesto that “all women are dehumanized as sex objects” by men, and of Charlotte Bunch’s celebration of lesbianism as a rejection of “the ideology of male supremacy . . . by denying women’s ‘innate’ need for men.”

Does heterosexuality “dehumanize” women? Has the woman who thinks of her sexual interest in men as “innate” been brainwashed by “the ideology of male supremacy”? Mocking laughter would be the response of most women to such claims, and if you told them that they had to accept such beliefs in order to escape the oppressive impositions of patriarchy, normal women might think you were insane.

Yet the faculty in Women’s Studies departments are not normal women, and the concept of “sexual harassment” was popularized by a lesbian, Lin Farley, who was the first director of what became the Women’s Studies program at Cornell University.

A man who expresses romantic interest in a female has dehumanized her as a sex object, feminism tells us, and if this male expression of heterosexuality occurs in the workplace, the man is guilty of sexual harassment — he has violated her civil rights.

No such condemnation can be made of women expressing their lesbian interest in other women. In fact, any woman who objected to a lesbian’s sexual advances could be accused of homophobia — possibly violating the civil rights of her lesbian pursuer!

This attitude of hostility toward heterosexuality as male oppression of women, and the celebration of lesbianism as the feminist ideal, has become so mainstream that we scarcely notice its manifestations. Why was it, we may ask, that both the American Civil Liberties Union and Florida’s largest gay-rights organization sided with lesbian sex offender Kaitlyn Hunt when it was claimed that homophobia caused her prosecution for molesting a 14-year-old girl ? The idea of a “lesbian loophole” in sex offender laws is startling, as is the number of recent cases in which minor girls, some as young as 12, were victimized by women teachers and coaches. The tenured radicals on university Women Studies faculties have been notably silent about such criminal cases.

Traditional morality is now routinely denounced by feminists as a “social construct” of the “heteronormative patriarchy.” What has happened in the past four decades is that feminism has waged a war on human nature, and has striven (with remarkable success) to replace our normal understanding of Right and Wrong with a new system of values: Women, good; men, evil.

Thus we return to contemplate the schisms that have divided feminists since the beginning of the Women’s Liberation Movement. Women who claim to endorse only “mainstream” feminism are quick to reject as a “stereotype” the image of feminists as man-hating lesbians. Yet these “mainstream” feminists refuse to criticize or condemn the influential man-hating lesbians who rule the academic world where feminist theories are promulgated. These campus radicals are not content merely to rule their collegiate domain, however. The American Association of University Women (AAUW) is now pushing to introduce “gender studies” to the high school curriculum, “creating innovative spaces for young people to engage in feminism and activism, equity, and social justice in today’s classrooms.” One of the leaders of this AAUW program is Ileana Jiminez, a lesbian English teacher from New York who is, among other things, an alumnus of elite Smith College, a founder of the New York Independent Schools LGBT Educators Group and a board member of the Astraea Lesbian Foundation for Justice.

Perhaps someone should tell Ms. Jiminez that her feminism is not “mainstream.” Good luck with that. Feminism is no longer threatened by the Lavender Menace — now it is the Lavender Menace.




 

Comments

240 Responses to “Sex Trouble: Radical Feminism and the Long Shadow of the ‘Lavender Menace’”

  1. NeoWayland
    July 16th, 2014 @ 7:35 pm

    So, not every conservative is like Fred Phelps, but every feminist is like Rita Mae Brown?

    Interesting.

  2. NeoWayland
    July 16th, 2014 @ 7:39 pm

    No, the point is that just because someone chooses a label they don’t necessarly belong to the same group as the most infamous members.

    And you’ll never know if the label as you see it applies unless you know the person.

  3. NeoWayland
    July 16th, 2014 @ 7:43 pm

    But you’ve just spent most of this thread trying vainly to tie all feminists to the RadFems.

  4. Durasim
    July 16th, 2014 @ 7:44 pm

    Not the same literal, physical group, but if they all have the same label, I can and will assume they have some kind of ideological commonality, until one or the other grows in number or influence and demonstrates how it differs from the other.

    So I cannot make any sort of judgment or presumption about Al Qaeda or the Muslim Brotherhood until I meet and great every single self-identified member of Al Qaeda or the Muslim Brotherhood?

  5. NeoWayland
    July 16th, 2014 @ 7:48 pm

    Government creates the price distortions. There is no way to factor that out as long as government is involved.

    There is no way a prudent person can foresee a vote in Congress or the publication of new regulations, much less the second and third order consequences. By the time we hit the feedback loop, everything is subject to change.

  6. Durasim
    July 16th, 2014 @ 7:48 pm

    No, I’ve just insisted that the Radical Feminists wield and exercise significant influence within the entire feminist movement and therefore I am entitled to judgments about the feminist movement at large because of their continued presence and influence. You’ve spent the entire thread trying vainly to convince us that Radical Feminists may as well not exist and have no influence or relevance within feminism.

  7. K-Bob
    July 16th, 2014 @ 7:55 pm

    Well played. I forgot about that line.

    Time to re-read that book.

  8. Durasim
    July 16th, 2014 @ 8:04 pm

    Nobody can perfectly foresee a vote in Congress, but actuarial analysts and handicappers can make predictions, just like they make predictions for elections and insurance risk.

    Most persons subject to “predatory lending” were warned on the loan contracts that the interest rate could increase in the future, and for many it did. Some got to lock in lower interest rates. Unless Congress can vote to retroactively raise student loan interest rates and retroactively increase principal balances of loans already incurred?

    If you’re saying that government involvement and its consequent price distortions completely preclude prudent self-interest, then it would seem almost that no person anywhere should be able to navigate any kind of commercial transaction anywhere for their own benefit, as government interferes with commerce across the board, with mortgage loans, gas prices, tariffs and duties on imports and exports, fines and lawsuits against tobacco companies, limits on maximum interest rates for state banks, etc.

    Anyway, I’m not exactly sure what your point was here. You started out vaguely saying that this new generation would have some unorthodox prodigy solutions to defy the old orthodoxy or something, and when I pointed out that a significant percentage of this new generation is not doing so well economically, you launched into this digression about how government meddling in student loans somehow excuses or absolves the youth of their currently poor economic performance.

    Well, if government meddling in student loans and other transactions inexorably prevents rational economic calculation for the youth, as you suggest, then that would suggest that the prospects of this generation are even bleaker, and that this supposed third way break though that is going to wow the old generations is a lot further off. Government meddling in price distortions is not ending anytime soon.

  9. Durasim
    July 16th, 2014 @ 8:22 pm

    No, not every conservative is like Fred Phelps and not every feminist is like Rita Mae Brown. However, Fred Phelps did not enjoy a hallowed status or lionization within conservatism, nor did the Republican Party or the Heritage Institute invite him to speak at their events. If the National Review did some flattering profile of him, that would have cost them dearly in PR.

    Rita Mae Brown and her work, by contrast, is still respected and praised even within “mainstream” feminist and gay-rights circles.

    http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/09/16/rubyfruit-jungle-oh-how-i-heart-you/

    Ms. Magazine (the publication of the Feminist “Majority” Foundation) took care to praise Brown and her poetry.

    http://msmagazine.com/blog/2012/04/30/national-poetry-month-rita-mae-brown/

    Brown is still an icon in the gay rights movement and apparently gets invited to be a college commencement speaker.

    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/10/lgbt-history-month-profile-author-screenwriter-rita-mae-brown/

    So since you establish an equivalency in extremism between Fred Phelps and Rita Mae Brown, I think their different treatments by their host movements is telling. Even “mainstream” feminists accept and endorse someone like Brown, whiles “mainstream” conservatives did not seem to extend that courtesy to Fred Phelps. Since Brown is a far off extremist, and mainstream feminism still acknowledges and lauds her, I think we are permitted to take that into account when contemplating feminism and not cleanly divorce and absolve the “mainstream” feminist movement from the extremists it still welcomes.

  10. Wombat_socho
    July 16th, 2014 @ 8:24 pm

    Off-topic. Do this often enough and win a free whack with the banhammer.

  11. Durasim
    July 16th, 2014 @ 8:27 pm

    So, have you ever played the “reluctant advocate” on feminist blogs? Defending conservatism or traditionalism or some other thing that most feminists revile?

  12. Quartermaster
    July 16th, 2014 @ 8:48 pm

    The worth of a human being was judged at the cross. The Gospel message, like it or not, has to deal with man’s sinful nature and where it leads. You don’t like that, and I understand that. But, in the end it’s utterly irrelevant. You don’t believe now, but you will when it’s far to late.

    If you really, truly think that man does not have a sinful nature, you simply don’t pay attention. That inattention is willful.

  13. NeoWayland
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:25 pm

    I know you don’t believe me, but the mainstream is changing. Just not to where you think it should.

    Again, pay attention to the younger folks, not what is being taught them.

    And judge individuals by their actions and words, rather than proclaiming that ALL members of X group follow another’s word without question.

  14. NeoWayland
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:30 pm

    To strictly feminist blogs? Only a handful, including that young lady from a couple of days ago.

    To pagan blogs? Several. As far as conservatives on those blogs, the two topics that come up the most are gun control and Christianity.

    To liberal blogs? Well, before they banned me and deleted my comments, quite a few. Of course they weren’t happy with the Log Cabin Republicans or the bisexuals or native peoples showing up for anything by the dog & pony shows. Most of them didn’t like pagans either.

  15. Durasim
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:33 pm

    You’re right, I don’t believe you.

    I do pay attention to the younger folks and what they say and do (and so does McCain). I read what Feministing.com and Feministe and Jezebel and Rawstory spew out every day. Unless you think Jill Filipovic and Amanda Marcotte have become the old guard harridans? And that would make Lena Dunham the middle-aged generation when she publicly apologizes for her heterosexuality?

    If whatever “feminist” wants to prove that she authentically dissents from its doctrines, she can try to do so. We are not obliged to suspend our judgment of the word feminist and its significance for the sake of providing these hypothetical persons with a blank slate when they choose to appear.

  16. Durasim
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:34 pm

    So what feminist blogs have you posted on to defend some conservative concepts?

  17. NeoWayland
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:36 pm

    *sighs*

    How do they use the label?

    Nice, simple question.

    Who chose the label?

    Another simple question.

  18. NeoWayland
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:41 pm

    And I could say the exact same thing about the national GOP leadership.

    Take a step back and look at the rank and file.

  19. NeoWayland
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:43 pm

    “If you’re saying that government involvement and its consequent price distortions completely preclude prudent self-interest, then it would seem almost that no person anywhere should be able to navigate any kind of commercial transaction anywhere for their own benefit, as government interferes with commerce across the board, with mortgage loans, gas prices, tariffs and duties on imports and exports, fines and lawsuits against tobacco companies, limits on maximum interest rates for state banks, etc.”

    Yes.

  20. Durasim
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:44 pm

    They use the label to signal their identification and inclusion within this particular ideological group and its aims and goals.

    As for who chose the label, I would assume anyone who decides to identify as part of that group. Unless you mean who first chose the label to identify and describe the group. In that case, it originated from some French socialist utopian named Charles Fourier and it was used sporadically to describe suffrage movements in the late 19th Century and early 20th Century. It did not become popularized into its modern usage until Second Wave feminism in the 1960’s, when Betty Friedan and company chose it because “Women’s Liberation” had already acquired a bad connotation.

  21. Durasim
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:45 pm

    And go ahead and make your judgments. They don’t care, any more than the feminists care what we think.

  22. Durasim
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:46 pm

    Well, it seems strange you would be predicting imminent breakthroughs and brilliant achievements from disaffected youth when you have such a bleak and futile outlook on rational economic self-interest and achievement.

  23. NeoWayland
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:53 pm

    Please don’t insist that humanity has to follow the precepts of your faith, or I will make you define which variant you mean and explain the parts you routinely ignore.

    Extra credit for explaining why Christians keep threatening people with eternal damnation in the name of your god when according to your own faith you have nothing to do with the judgement.

    In case you hadn’t noticed, most of humanity follows a path that is not Christianity. Since I am sure you would object if they demanded you bow before their faith, you could at least return the favor.

  24. Durasim
    July 16th, 2014 @ 10:57 pm

    *expectorating cough*

  25. Quartermaster
    July 17th, 2014 @ 6:53 am

    You are acting like a moron again. I simply warn of judgment to come. You can live anyway you wish, but there are consequences. If you don’t like that then complain to Christ when you are brought before Him for final judgment and disposal.

  26. Chuck Pelto
    July 17th, 2014 @ 7:05 am

    RE: What, Me Worry?

    Only meterosexuals worry about what feminists think and pander to their manipulative whims.

    Real men marry real women, as in the one described in Proverbs 31.

  27. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 10:28 am

    You were just hovering over the keyboard yesterday, weren’t you? I haven’t had that happen since the old Excite Clubs. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it here on this site. Even Quartermaster doesn’t do it that fast.

    I wonder why? No matter. I’m sure we’ll find out soon enough.

  28. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 10:35 am

    Anyway, back on topic.

    You’re not looking at the “right” people. I remind you that the left puts great worth in the leaders who were “chosen” from above, and then afterwards does a semi-panicked shuffle when it becomes obvious that “the people” have made another choice.

  29. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 10:45 am

    Now that is interesting all over again!

    Do you want my shoe size? Last week’s grocery list? My credit rating?

    I’ll tell you now what you’ll find if you look. I usually say that conservatives have some good ideas when it comes to government leaving people alone, and that government control/partnership with business is never a good idea.

    And then usually because Christian’s ruling the country is an issue, I say that if you ignore the Christians spouting hellfire, the rest are usually nice folks who you might want as neighbors.

  30. Durasim
    July 17th, 2014 @ 10:50 am

    There was no supreme soviet or politburo that appointed Catharine McKinnon, Andrea Dworkin, Melissa Farley, or Gail Dines, et al. They arose to their positions of prominence by ideological commonality and collaboration, like most political movements. Jill Filipovic and Amanda Marcotte were not “chosen” from above either. Whether or not they are the numerical majority of identified “feminists” is not the issue. Either way, they have disproportionate and significant power in setting and determining the agenda of feminism, and we are entitled to judge and evaluate feminism on that basis.

  31. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 10:52 am

    I remind you again of the many on this site who prefer their own version of “conservative” to the label “Republican.”

    Or my own issues here with the difference between “libertarian” and “Libertarian.” If the word hadn’t been co-opted in the country by the left, I would prefer “liberal.”

    The definition is not set in stone. It can and does change.

    Just like the word American.

  32. Durasim
    July 17th, 2014 @ 10:53 am

    No, I do not want your shoe size or your grocery list. I just want to know what feminist blogs you ever posted on to see if you have ever actually defended conservative concepts within a feminist forum. This will help to determine whether you are in fact some kind of contrarian poster who tends to defend a concept if it is being mostly attacked within an ideological discussion, as you claim to be.

  33. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 10:54 am

    Pardon?

  34. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 10:56 am

    But you should.

    Unless you really were planning to imprison them.

  35. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 10:59 am

    Because I think the government is getting a mite top-heavy.

  36. Durasim
    July 17th, 2014 @ 11:00 am

    Sure, many on this site have their own version and variation of conservative, but that does not rule out or negate general commonalities and aspects of the term. Just because Noam Chomsky calls himself a version of conservative, does that mean that the term “conservative” must stretch to include and encompass somebody of Chomsky’s views within its fold?
    Of course the definition can change. The persons here judge the term “feminist” by its contemporary and prominent public face, as they should, not by the supposed variants and offshoots that you claim could exist.

  37. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 11:01 am

    No, you’re trotting out your beliefs in the hope that I’ll be quiet. It usually works for you.

    But not in my case.

  38. Durasim
    July 17th, 2014 @ 11:03 am

    So unless people are planning to imprison those they disagree with, they have to care what those people say? You’ll have to elaborate on that one.

  39. Durasim
    July 17th, 2014 @ 11:05 am

    It’s been more than a “mite top-heavy” for a while now. If you think it’s going to imminently collapse, then maybe the young generation should go investing in bomb shelters, that is if the bomb shelter market hasn’t been price distorted by governmental interference.

  40. Durasim
    July 17th, 2014 @ 11:08 am

    Since it appears to be customary for you and other people to type their respiratory outbursts, I figured I would do the same.

  41. Durasim
    July 17th, 2014 @ 11:13 am

    Find out what soon enough? Do you have private investigators on the case? I just assume that people expect prompt responses to their statements.

  42. Durasim
    July 17th, 2014 @ 12:10 pm

    Or to put it another way, we all have a general definition of what a “socialist” is and it usually involves egalitarian economic and political policies. However, there are also some people who call themselves “national socialist.” Does that mean we should expand our definition of socialist to also include Nazis? So if a person calls himself socialist, I should assume he could be anything from Eugene V. Debs to George Lincoln Rockwell?

  43. Quartermaster
    July 17th, 2014 @ 1:23 pm

    Don’t flatter yourself. You are acting very stupidly. I don’t have anything mind like you think I do. You want to reject the warning, that’s your choice. You want to rave otherwise, that’s your choice.

  44. Demons of Left-Wing Paranoia : The Other McCain
    July 17th, 2014 @ 1:52 pm

    […] the way, please excuse the paucity of new blog material Wednesday. Monday’s 3,000-word “Sex Trouble” essay about radical feminism was so popular — a sidebar headline at Ace of Spades HQ and an Instalanche, among other […]

  45. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 5:00 pm

    No, that’s not it.

    Nice try though.

  46. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 5:04 pm

    Hello! Knock-kock!

    That doesn’t work when you become part of the “mainstream” left. That’s when the tastemakers and the power brokers get involved, and they mostly succeed.

    That’s what they’ve built all their assumptions on.

  47. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 5:09 pm

    Like I said, that just keeps getting interesting.

    What you see is what you get. What you choose to believe is up to you, but at the rate you’re going you’re probably going to be wrong.

  48. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 5:13 pm

    “Sure, many on this site have their own version and variation of conservative, but that does not rule out or negate general commonalities and aspects of the term.”

    But it does mean that they have chosen variants that they want others to recognize.

    “Version and variation?” Okaaaay.

  49. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 5:18 pm

    Several days ago folks on this site spent hours telling a young lady that she couldn’t possibly be a feminist because she didn’t meat their definition.

    Multiple times on this site I’ve read people’s explanation of why they aren’t Republican even though they are conservative.

    Sauce for the gander.

  50. NeoWayland
    July 17th, 2014 @ 5:21 pm

    So, offline, do you ignore body language and other non-verbal cues? You’re missing something then.