A Statement To Ponder

Posted on | August 19, 2014 | 133 Comments

by Smitty

A hundred years ago, the first group of progressives concluded that this country needed to change in a big way. They argued explicitly for a refounding of the United States on the grounds that the only absolute in political life is that absolutes are material and economic rather than moral in nature.

That’s one of those statements that leaves one rubbing the chin. It seems plausible on the face of matters. However, having taken one’s eyes off the Almighty, much is possible. As someone wicked once said:

. . .All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Category: Culture

Comments

133 Responses to “A Statement To Ponder”

NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 8:17 am

I’m certainly not progressive.

So let me ask, is the only source of accepted morality Christian?
McGehee
August 19th, 2014 @ 8:28 am

Nearly all self-proclaimed atheists in America were raised on Christian values — especially the proselytizing atheists.
CrustyB
August 19th, 2014 @ 8:43 am

My response to such progressives is: Be fruitful and multiply.
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August 19th, 2014 @ 8:54 am

[…] Smitty: A Statement to Ponder […]
RS
August 19th, 2014 @ 9:03 am

The question is whether Morality is transcendent or merely a human construct. If it is the latter, then ultimately it is based solely upon the ability of the powerful to enforce it upon the weak, regardless of what that Morality is. It also necessarily means that Morality is mutable, dependent upon the whims of the powerful at any given time.

If Morality is transcendent and exists independently of human whim, its application is universal and practiced without regard to whomever may have power. The Judeo-Christian worldview and ethic is not dependent upon Human agency. It exists, and it forms the basis for emphasizing individual autonomy and responsibility, where one answers solely to the Creator. You may not “accept” that morality, but by allowing for its acceptance or rejection, you submit yourself to whomever has the willingness and ability to force you comply with whatever that entity desires at any given moment.
Trespassers W
August 19th, 2014 @ 9:23 am

Why? Do you know of anything better?
Eric Ashley
August 19th, 2014 @ 9:40 am

Since Christ is Truth, yes.
Eric Ashley
August 19th, 2014 @ 9:42 am

The physical changes in response to the moral. The first settlers came upon a howling wilderness, which since its not that anymore, but a plentiful land of beauty and wealth, must not be an absolute.
Daniel O'Brien
August 19th, 2014 @ 9:45 am

As a Hindu I believe Morality is transcendent, but also believe it is not uniquely contained in the Judeo-Christian worldview.
McGehee
August 19th, 2014 @ 9:47 am

In what faith were you raised? My observation consistently leads me to believe that Christian-raised non-Christians tend to assign way too much of their morality to a faith adopted in adulthood.

To be properly internalized and practiced throughout life, a moral foundation needs to be taught from earliest childhood.
RS
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:04 am

If you reread my comment, you will note, I only suggested that there are two alternative views of morality– transcendent or not–and the necessary implications of both. If one concedes Transcendence, only then can one discuss the nature and Truth of whatever revelation underlies Morality.

As to the Judeo-Christian worldview, as I said, it emphasizes the individual, personal autonomy and personal responsibility. I did not claim that other other revelations do not. However, this country and our society were formed upon the basis of that worldview and losing it or rejecting it transforms this country into one where the only “right” is the power to enforce one’s will upon another.
Daniel O'Brien
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:11 am

You place far too much importance on “childhood” understanding and impressions. Yes, I was properly dropped off at the church door by my parents and the nuns beat their Sunday school catechism into my pre-pubescent brain. Not clear to me that this impressed much morality into my foundation.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:11 am

*grins*

I’m not atheist. And I’m certainly not proselytizing.
Daniel O'Brien
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:12 am

“emphasizes the individual, personal autonomy and personal responsibility.” As do most (but not all) of the non-Judeo-Christian revelations.
Daniel O'Brien
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:13 am

Funny how, for many, !Christian == Atheist. I am neither.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:13 am

Perhaps the question should be “do I know of anything as good?”

The answer to that one is yes.
RS
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:17 am

That’s a different discussion. Suffice it to say, I disagree.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:20 am

I’d argue that most morality is a human construct. Especially when “it is written” or preached from a pulpit.

I will agree that morality can depend heavily on a person’s relationship to the Divine. But I suspect my understanding of the Divine does not match yours. I would also posit that since I am not Christian and you stress individual responsibility, then I shouldn’t answer to a “Judeo-Christian” worldview.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:23 am

You’re saying that your faith is an objective, universal truth.

I disagree.

As you would if I said the same thing about mine.
Paul H. Lemmen
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:27 am

Much of that depends of family values and the spiritual life of the family. Too many Catholics (members of the Roman Catholic Church) are anything but. Often referred to as “cafeteria catholics” who pick and choose what teachings from God’s Word they will follow, these are secular believers that are not Christians at all, but camouflaged pagans. The family life is not a spiritual one and being dropped off for CCD, Sunday School or teaching by nuns in a Catholic School will never teach them the faith in God because it is not valued inside the family life, only a rote memorization. The parents usually are uninterested in belief, do not teach morality (other than don’t get caught) nor personal responsibility. Only a facile at best knowledge, just enough to appear to be Catholic without following the precepts.
This same thing is appearing more and more in other Churches today because of the chilling narrative that they must be accepting of everyone when that is the farthest thing from Christ’s message. Too many Churches (Including the Roman, Orthodox and other mainstream “Catholic” churches) have become exactly what Christ warned us not to become.
Those who make reasoned choices in adulthood actually practice their faith in more concrete and fulfilling ways. Sometimes it takes several changes to find validity.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:29 am

Pardon, but can you show a Christian who does not pick and choose scripture?
Paul H. Lemmen
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:41 am

Christians are supposed to use selected scriptural quotes to explain belief. The entire scripture is to be believed as God’s Word, not to exclude any. That is the difference. Too many Churches only embrace parts to the exclusion of other parts. This is incorrect, the totality of God’s Word is what marks a follower of Christ (i.e., a Christian) from a pick and choose christian.
It’s difficult and all men are sinners and fail but through the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ’s salvific act on Calvary, those who do believe fully in God’s Word and have accepted Christ’s gift of salvation are forgiven of their sins. Individually. Your belief may be different but that is the actual definition of a Christian.
Your right, endowed by our Creator God, to a different belief is absolute. Or to disbelief if that is what you choose. We are created with free will by which we live our lives, the choice of belief or unbelief and at most I can but tell you, if you are willing, about my faith. I can preach and if you do not desire to hear what I say, that is your right to not listen. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. I believe in cordial discussions of belief, sadly too many Churches deny that to any who deviate from their dogma.
Evi L. Bloggerlady
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:42 am

Well you could go with Hollywood clap trap, but I hardly call it morality.
Trespassers W
August 19th, 2014 @ 10:48 am

But if it isn’t clearly, demonstrably better (or significantly different when you boil it down to the fundamentals) . . .
DJF
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:00 am

Progressives a 100 years ago are not the same as today’s Progressives

A hundred years ago Progressives were against the racial and ethnic spoils system of giving out government jobs and replaced it with a system of qualifications and testing. Today Progressives support the spoil system and say that qualifications and testing is wrong

A hundred years ago Progressives were against tenement housing which were a health risk, todays Progressives turn a blind eye to 20 Mexicans living in one apartment.

A hundred years ago Progressives built places like Ellis Island to keep out immigrants who would be a burden on the US, today’s Progressives want immigrants who are the most burden on the US

A hundred years ago Progressives were against the monopoly of the rail and trolley system and supported road building to give people more freedom of movement, today Progressives support anything on rails moving people no matter how uneconomic and are against anything on roads no matter how well they serve transportation needs.

A hundred years ago Progressives believed in beautifying the public spaces, today’s Progressives think that graffiti is high art.

etc,etc

So while I don’t agree with everything that Progressives did a 100 years ago, they have nothing to do with todays Progressives
Rob Crawford
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:07 am

What’s surprises me — though it shouldn’t — is how supposedly open-minded people cannot see an example from one faith and apply it to their own, especially when the concept of a lying tempter is, from what I can tell, nearly universal. They rather take offense that there wasn’t a catalog of examples, rather than one from a primary underpinning of modern western civilization.

Ya’ll must wet yourselves when you read, say, the speeches of Lincoln or Shakespeare.
Rob Crawford
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:33 am

Today’s “progressives” tie themselves directly to those of 100 years ago. What you’re missing is that both today’s and yesterday’s are lying about what they want.
William_Teach
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:35 am

We have to consider what the Progressives have done since: They have control over the teacher’s unions, government unions, the educational system, Lawyers guild, medical guilds, state and federal bureaucracies, most unions, the media and entertainment industries. Lots of rich people, such as athletes and business leaders pretend to be Progressives, because they can afford to. Progressives and their long term plans make the Chinese long term plans look like sticky pad writings.

What are they doing now? Destroying religion, partially by co-opting religious leaders, who blindly follow along. Progs are also infiltrating organized religion to move it way left. This is also going on in the military.
William_Teach
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:35 am

Do you think that murder and theft are wrong?

Well, then, yeah.
William_Teach
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:36 am

Which is…..?
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:36 am

You do realize that you’ve basically said that Christians can pick and choose which verses to use, but the rest of us aren’t allowed to call them on it, don’t you?
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:40 am

*grins*

It depends on how you define “fundamentals.”

None the less, your question has two edges. If yours isn’t better than mine, why should we go with yours?
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:45 am

Should it matter?

I don’t know about you, but I’m going to judge someone by what they do. Do they hurt people? Do they mess with other’s people’s stuff? Do they pretend to be something or someone they aren’t?

Words matter. Actions matter more. Good intentions don’t.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:48 am

But is that the only choice?

Some Hollywood stuff is pretty good. I saw The Shootist again last week. And The Way Way Back says a lot about popular morality and being a man today.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:50 am

Are you saying that Christianity has the exclusive to declare murder and theft wrong?

It wasn’t even the first.
Paul H. Lemmen
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:51 am

I did not say that in the least. I specifically said that Christians are expected to select scriptural references to explain beliefs. Nowhere did I say Christians are allowed to pick and choose what to believe. Reread the comment without your attitude and deceit. Concentrate on the actual words in English. Note the pro-noun and noun usage and the distinguishing between the two. If you want to pick a fight go elsewhere. You are entitled to believe what you wish, no matter how stupid.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:55 am

I didn’t say anything about belief, I said “which verses to use.”

The rest you read into it.
Paul H. Lemmen
August 19th, 2014 @ 11:59 am

You conclusion “but the rest of us aren’t allowed to call them on it, don’t you?” is what I called you on. Please cite with specificity where I said that. My concluding statement “I believe in cordial discussions of belief, sadly too many Churches deny that to any who deviate from their dogma.” actually puts the lie to your contention in plain English.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 12:07 pm

But you don’t want me to call you on it. You’ve made that pretty clear.

So let me cut through this preliminary stuff.

I don’t think any group has an exclusive to a higher morality. Especially when some of their first actions include denouncing those who share the label but aren’t pure enough.

You do pick and choose, however you justify it. Everyone does.

Now we can move on to find where we agree, or we can get mired in the process and the doctrine and the dogma some more.
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August 19th, 2014 @ 12:12 pm

[…] A Statement To Ponder […]
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 12:36 pm

The Judeo-Christian heritage is the basis of morality in the western civilization and has been for better than 1000 years. That is also the only religious heritage in the world that place a direct value on each human being as an individual.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 12:36 pm

Trolling again I see.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 12:37 pm

Since you have offered nothing since you’ve been trolling here, why should anything you say be taken with more than a grain of salt? About all you do is preen and poke at others.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 12:38 pm

Care to list those non-Judeo-Christian revelations that do?
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 12:41 pm

Quit being a preening idiot and answer the man’s question. Either that or troll somewhere else.
Paul H. Lemmen
August 19th, 2014 @ 1:06 pm

You insist on arguing. As I said befor, believe what you want to believe. Same as for others who I see as cherry-pickers, they are free to believe what they want. I will respectfully discuss if they are respectful and not simply trying to make themselves the ‘winner’ in any conversation as you are doing. The proof of anyone’s belief is after death anyway. I’ll go on believing my way as you go on believing yours.
The conversation is ended, sadly, you proved yourself an intolerant fool by twisting my plain words into your narrative.
Good-bye.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 1:17 pm

*shrugs*

“Do what I say, don’t do as I do.”

I really wish that Genesis song didn’t apply as much as it does.
Evi L. Bloggerlady
August 19th, 2014 @ 1:19 pm

“So let me ask, is the only source of accepted morality Christian?” No.

But what I do not get about these atheists, why do they care about what other people believe? I get along with atheists in the Penn Jilette mode. But I find the other type just tedious. They are not bat shit crazy like ISIS and Al Qaeda, but they are certainly no fun to talk to at a cocktail party.
Slam1263
August 19th, 2014 @ 1:23 pm

I always tell the rabid Atheists, that I don’t want to join their religion.
Same with the Church of Global Climate Disruption zealots.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 1:26 pm

I offered a different perspective.

I have at times said things that you disagreed with. I have asked questions that you were uncomfortable with.

I’ve also offered statements you agree with.

And if you will check, I’ve never attacked Christianity. I’ve never used insults on this board although I have laughed at people’s attempt to insult me.

Even when I do post things, people are free to reply or ignore as they please. I’m usually polite until someone tries to use their beliefs to govern my actions.

One other thing. I don’t lie.