It Was Not ‘Violence-Violence’

Posted on | May 31, 2010 | 92 Comments

by Smitty (via Memeorandum)

Andrew Sullivan treats us to the Full Whoopi in relating the IDF raid on the Gaza flotilla, emphasis mine:

A simple point. The violence by the activists is pretty abhorrent. These are not followers of Gandhi or MLK Jr. But the violence is not fatal to anyone and it is in response to a dawn commando raid by armed soldiers. They are engaging in self-defense. More to the point: they are civilians confronting one of the best militaries in the world. They killed no soldiers; their weapons were improvised; the death toll in the fight is now deemed to be up to 19 – all civilians.

It staggers me to read defenses of what the Israelis have done. They attacked a civilian flotilla in international waters breaking no law. When they met fierce if asymmetric resistance, they opened fire. And we are now being asked to regard the Israelis as the victims.

Look, since 2007 there has been a blockade, blockhead. These have gone on long enough for an Internet to develop a Wikipedia and have its own page. When you know there is a blockade in place, you sort of expect the blockader to have a vested interest in interdicting cargo. Legitimate humanitarian aid should get through, or else reasonable people should join nitwits like yourself in the “That’s Uncool” chorus.
Via Knowledge Is Power comes a clip from idfnadesk indicating Flotilla Ship Mavi Marmara may have been packing more than band-aids and rubbing alcohol:But, hey: don’t let the context of being surrounded by people that literally want your blood upset your narrative, Andrew.

The attempt at some proportionality argument ignores the reports that the IDF went in without assault rifles. Had the IDF slaughtered half the Mavi Marmara crew outright, you may actually have an argument. But the evidence seems to indicate they did not. The a priori judgment that Israel is always wrong utterly pollutes your mind, Sullivan. They ceased to be civilians when they engaged the IDF in close combat.

Furthermore, the problem was limited to one boat in the flotilla. Do you think that, maybe, just maybe, the Mavi Marmara carried more than M-and-M’s?

One nearly approaches a sort of academic curiosity, wondering what it would take to bring an Andrew Sullivan sort of character into reality. Just before becoming a full thought, the whole venture drowns in a puddle of contempt. I actually have more respect for the personal courage of Whoopi Goldberg than that of Andrew Sullivan; she’s a tough lady.

Update: Insta-lanche!

Update II: As far as I can tell, the two Andrew Sullivan comments are authentic.

Category: Andrew Sullivan, Israel

Comments

92 Responses to “It Was Not ‘Violence-Violence’”

Bunyip
June 1st, 2010 @ 3:46 am

You can tell ol’ Andy isn’t working for Marty Peretz these days.

Or maybe the beagle wrote that post.

Nah, the beagle is rational.
Bunyip
May 31st, 2010 @ 10:46 pm

You can tell ol’ Andy isn’t working for Marty Peretz these days.

Or maybe the beagle wrote that post.

Nah, the beagle is rational.
Israel Kills 10 In Raid, Is Called Before UN Within Hours | IgnorantME
May 31st, 2010 @ 10:51 pm

[…] It’s not “Violence-Violence” so the soldiers shouldn’t have defended themselves according to Andrew Sullivan. Make Your […]
NukemHill
June 1st, 2010 @ 3:53 am

I actually have more respect for the personal courage of Whoopi Goldberg than that of Andrew Sullivan; she’s a tough lady.

Whereas Sully’s just a preening bitch.
NukemHill
May 31st, 2010 @ 10:53 pm

I actually have more respect for the personal courage of Whoopi Goldberg than that of Andrew Sullivan; she’s a tough lady.

Whereas Sully’s just a preening bitch.
Andrew Sullivan
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:13 am

But the fact is the boat was in international waters, had committed no crime in Israeli waters, could have been kept away by a variety of other tactics, and was attacked by fully-armed commandos who ended up killing many unarmed civilians. To see Israel as the victim in this is so perverse it borders on unhinged.

What we have just seen is a microcosm of what’s killing Israel. Some think it’s Israel’s only option and want more aggression from the Jewish state.

Jews, can’t live with them. Can live without them. That is what we Brits say. They are worse than Christianists.

And three minutes to midnight, I posted a picture of Arlington with links to Israeli war crimes. So there. Memorial Day for you.
Andrew Sullivan
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:13 pm

But the fact is the boat was in international waters, had committed no crime in Israeli waters, could have been kept away by a variety of other tactics, and was attacked by fully-armed commandos who ended up killing many unarmed civilians. To see Israel as the victim in this is so perverse it borders on unhinged.

What we have just seen is a microcosm of what’s killing Israel. Some think it’s Israel’s only option and want more aggression from the Jewish state.

Jews, can’t live with them. Can live without them. That is what we Brits say. They are worse than Christianists.

And three minutes to midnight, I posted a picture of Arlington with links to Israeli war crimes. So there. Memorial Day for you.
W4LT
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:14 am

The only way I could be in greater support of the IDF raid would be if Andrew Sullivan had been one of the “activists” on the flotilla. But, of course, Andrew is much too big a pussy to ever participate beyond the theoretical confines of his Georgetown salons.
W4LT
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:14 am

Sully wrote “was attacked by fully-armed commandos”

wrong again, Trig.
W4LT
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:14 pm

The only way I could be in greater support of the IDF raid would be if Andrew Sullivan had been one of the “activists” on the flotilla. But, of course, Andrew is much too big a pussy to ever participate beyond the theoretical confines of his Georgetown salons.
W4LT
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:14 pm

Sully wrote “was attacked by fully-armed commandos”

wrong again, Trig.
American Glob » Blog Archive » Wow! Look At All The “Humanitarian” Tools They Found on the Flotilla of “Peace” Activists
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:29 pm

[…] Hat Tip to Smitty at The Other McCain. […]
Moe Lane
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:30 am

…that’s a disturbingly good parody of the man. Unless he’s gotten more unhinged since I stopped reading him?
Moe Lane
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:30 pm

…that’s a disturbingly good parody of the man. Unless he’s gotten more unhinged since I stopped reading him?
pseudotsuga
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:35 am

Who were the victims, Sullivan?
It was indeed the blockade runners, carrying baby formula, aspirin, and blankets (not to mention weapons intended for peaceful purposes) who were the victims–victims of their own stupidity, apparently.
A picture of Arlington with links to Israeli war crimes! Oooo! That couldn’t be a tu quoque, could it?
pseudotsuga
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:35 pm

Who were the victims, Sullivan?
It was indeed the blockade runners, carrying baby formula, aspirin, and blankets (not to mention weapons intended for peaceful purposes) who were the victims–victims of their own stupidity, apparently.
A picture of Arlington with links to Israeli war crimes! Oooo! That couldn’t be a tu quoque, could it?
Aleister
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:41 am

Moe,

Sullivan becomes more unhinged all the time. We need to send in Krauthammer to prescribe serious MEDS. Stat!

-Aleister

Great post, Smitty.
Aleister
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:41 pm

Moe,

Sullivan becomes more unhinged all the time. We need to send in Krauthammer to prescribe serious MEDS. Stat!

-Aleister

Great post, Smitty.
Wind Rider
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:43 am

Couple of problems with your narrative, Andy – the ‘activists’ on the boat were, as the evidence plainly shows, from both the items collected afterwards, and the video of the actual boarding, armed. Those armaments may have been, by military standards, crude, but a lead pipe applied to the head will kill a person just as surely as a missile launched from a high tech drone.

Further, the IDF engaged initially with non-lethal weapons – literally paint ball guns – and only requested, then received, authorization to use more persuasive means. This in and of itself is absolutely amazing – that the IDF personnel involved demonstrated true restraint in the face of a potentially lethal threat – asking permission to defend themselves from being bludgeoned to death!

The actual geophysical position of the vessels at the time of intercept is trivial – it was their course and intent to violate a long established maritime blockade – a perfectly acceptable action of a nation state in response to a belligerent situation. And while you second guess the tactical acumen of the Israeli command structure, you fail to apply the same scrutiny to the terrorist supported ‘activists’ on the vessels – who could have avoided the entire incident by either a) agreeing to pull in and offload at the designated Israeli port for such trans-shipments, or b) not tried to pull the entire stunt in the first place.

Mr. Sullivan, your continued cognitive dissonance on this matter, coupled with your naked and unashamed anti-Semitism is utterly astounding. On the one hand you roundly and smugly condemn a nation and people that would welcome you warmly as a respected guest, yet cheer like a mindless young schoolgirl for violent extremists who would happily decapitate you just to make a video out of the event to proudly show their friends, simply because of your personal proclivities – your unflagging support for them be damned.

It would be inaccurate to refer to you as a useful idiot, Mr. Sullivan. As there is utterly no obvious use for the drivel which flows from your virtually insane world view – other than the creation of utter astonishment that you could actually be so obtuse.
Wind Rider
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:43 pm

Couple of problems with your narrative, Andy – the ‘activists’ on the boat were, as the evidence plainly shows, from both the items collected afterwards, and the video of the actual boarding, armed. Those armaments may have been, by military standards, crude, but a lead pipe applied to the head will kill a person just as surely as a missile launched from a high tech drone.

Further, the IDF engaged initially with non-lethal weapons – literally paint ball guns – and only requested, then received, authorization to use more persuasive means. This in and of itself is absolutely amazing – that the IDF personnel involved demonstrated true restraint in the face of a potentially lethal threat – asking permission to defend themselves from being bludgeoned to death!

The actual geophysical position of the vessels at the time of intercept is trivial – it was their course and intent to violate a long established maritime blockade – a perfectly acceptable action of a nation state in response to a belligerent situation. And while you second guess the tactical acumen of the Israeli command structure, you fail to apply the same scrutiny to the terrorist supported ‘activists’ on the vessels – who could have avoided the entire incident by either a) agreeing to pull in and offload at the designated Israeli port for such trans-shipments, or b) not tried to pull the entire stunt in the first place.

Mr. Sullivan, your continued cognitive dissonance on this matter, coupled with your naked and unashamed anti-Semitism is utterly astounding. On the one hand you roundly and smugly condemn a nation and people that would welcome you warmly as a respected guest, yet cheer like a mindless young schoolgirl for violent extremists who would happily decapitate you just to make a video out of the event to proudly show their friends, simply because of your personal proclivities – your unflagging support for them be damned.

It would be inaccurate to refer to you as a useful idiot, Mr. Sullivan. As there is utterly no obvious use for the drivel which flows from your virtually insane world view – other than the creation of utter astonishment that you could actually be so obtuse.
Joebobe
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:50 am

Andrew Sullivan on
May 31st, 2010 bloviated:

“But the fact is the boat was…attacked by fully-armed commandos”

WRONG oh flatulent one. The Commandos primary arms were PAINT BALL GUNS, as can be clearly seen in the videos. They also carried holstered handguns, and would have all died had they not had those. Saying they were fully armed is simply another lie. The flotilla was offered escort to an Israeli port for inspection. How easy it would have been to cooperate. Instead, they got exactly what they wanted….a violent confrontation with Israel, and the baying support of cretins like Andrew.
Joebobe
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:50 pm

Andrew Sullivan on
May 31st, 2010 bloviated:

“But the fact is the boat was…attacked by fully-armed commandos”

WRONG oh flatulent one. The Commandos primary arms were PAINT BALL GUNS, as can be clearly seen in the videos. They also carried holstered handguns, and would have all died had they not had those. Saying they were fully armed is simply another lie. The flotilla was offered escort to an Israeli port for inspection. How easy it would have been to cooperate. Instead, they got exactly what they wanted….a violent confrontation with Israel, and the baying support of cretins like Andrew.
Gary Rosen
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:53 am

So I guess you’re jim-dandy, soillivan, with the Hamas charter that explicitly calls for the murder of Jews – not “settlers”, not “Zionists”, not Israelis, but Jews?
Gary Rosen
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:53 pm

So I guess you’re jim-dandy, soillivan, with the Hamas charter that explicitly calls for the murder of Jews – not “settlers”, not “Zionists”, not Israelis, but Jews?
Chad
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:56 am

“But the fact is the boat was in international waters, had committed no crime in Israeli waters,”

Any vessel trying to run a declared blockade is essentially committing an act of war against the blockading power. That’s the simple truth of the laws of the sea, and is centuries old. That Hamas is in open hostilities with Israel and controls Gaza immediately makes any blockade of Gaza completely legal, it’s just that simple. That this reality is foreign to the pro-murder press like Sully is predictable at this point.

Frankly, Israel should have put the flotilla on the bottom of the Med and been done with it. But at least now they can catalog all the munitions on the boats and look at their suppliers.
Chad
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:56 pm

“But the fact is the boat was in international waters, had committed no crime in Israeli waters,”

Any vessel trying to run a declared blockade is essentially committing an act of war against the blockading power. That’s the simple truth of the laws of the sea, and is centuries old. That Hamas is in open hostilities with Israel and controls Gaza immediately makes any blockade of Gaza completely legal, it’s just that simple. That this reality is foreign to the pro-murder press like Sully is predictable at this point.

Frankly, Israel should have put the flotilla on the bottom of the Med and been done with it. But at least now they can catalog all the munitions on the boats and look at their suppliers.
Aleister
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:58 am

INSTA-lanche!

http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/100382/
Aleister
May 31st, 2010 @ 11:58 pm

INSTA-lanche!

http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/100382/
Daily Buzz 06.01.10 | Daily Buzz Factor
June 1st, 2010 @ 12:08 am

[…] / Jerusalem Post / Real Clear Politics / National Review / Daily Caller / The Other McCain / New […]
Hank
June 1st, 2010 @ 5:12 am

“Whereas Sully’s just a preening bitch.”
====

Hmmm, and all this time I thought he was a ‘poof’. Maybe that is one and the same?
Hank
June 1st, 2010 @ 12:12 am

“Whereas Sully’s just a preening bitch.”
====

Hmmm, and all this time I thought he was a ‘poof’. Maybe that is one and the same?
YFS
June 1st, 2010 @ 5:23 am

Agreed, a great post, especially as an illustration of Sullivan’s bald-faced dishonesty.

Just in his above reply this bigot Sullivan is as deceitful about the known circumstances of the confrontation as anything I have read today, and probably will ever read. And if that’s “what we Brits say”, about the Jews, then to hell with the Brits – they’re doomed to live under the boot of Sharia before long anyway thanks to a nationwide epidemic of Sullivan-style dhimmitude.

As Ed Morrissey points out:
“…the blockade exists to keep weapons out of the hands of Hamas, which continually attacks Israel despite the latter’s withdrawal from Gaza years ago. It’s a legitimate and necessary military response to Hamas’ terrorism, and the flotilla knowingly sailed itself into a military conflict – and carried arms into it as well.
YFS
June 1st, 2010 @ 12:23 am

Agreed, a great post, especially as an illustration of Sullivan’s bald-faced dishonesty.

Just in his above reply this bigot Sullivan is as deceitful about the known circumstances of the confrontation as anything I have read today, and probably will ever read. And if that’s “what we Brits say”, about the Jews, then to hell with the Brits – they’re doomed to live under the boot of Sharia before long anyway thanks to a nationwide epidemic of Sullivan-style dhimmitude.

As Ed Morrissey points out:
“…the blockade exists to keep weapons out of the hands of Hamas, which continually attacks Israel despite the latter’s withdrawal from Gaza years ago. It’s a legitimate and necessary military response to Hamas’ terrorism, and the flotilla knowingly sailed itself into a military conflict – and carried arms into it as well.
Matt
June 1st, 2010 @ 5:33 am

“Jews, can’t live with them. Can live without them. That is what we Brits say.” Substitute any other ethnic group in that statement and Asshole Sullivan would be arrested for a hate crime by those same Brits. And this blog would be in hot water as well. How is it that you can’t live with people who largely share your political beliefs, even including your disgust for the state of Israel? It’s only because of their race, which makes you a bona fide racist. But you think it’s okay because your racism is a national characteristic. So everything you accuse Israel of is a projection of your own hate.
Matt
June 1st, 2010 @ 12:33 am

“Jews, can’t live with them. Can live without them. That is what we Brits say.” Substitute any other ethnic group in that statement and Asshole Sullivan would be arrested for a hate crime by those same Brits. And this blog would be in hot water as well. How is it that you can’t live with people who largely share your political beliefs, even including your disgust for the state of Israel? It’s only because of their race, which makes you a bona fide racist. But you think it’s okay because your racism is a national characteristic. So everything you accuse Israel of is a projection of your own hate.
Wargasm
June 1st, 2010 @ 6:16 am

Is Sullivan honestly suggesting that if “the violence is not fatal to anyone” then the perpetrators should be given a pass? Then should abused wives and victims of gay-bashing just take their lumps instead of fighting back, for fear of injuring their attackers in a “disproportionate” manner?

What an asshat. No, seriously.
Wargasm
June 1st, 2010 @ 1:16 am

Is Sullivan honestly suggesting that if “the violence is not fatal to anyone” then the perpetrators should be given a pass? Then should abused wives and victims of gay-bashing just take their lumps instead of fighting back, for fear of injuring their attackers in a “disproportionate” manner?

What an asshat. No, seriously.
dmitry
June 1st, 2010 @ 6:46 am

Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality

5.1.2(3) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search, capture or diversion.

5.1.2(4) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they
(a) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) are incorporated into or assist the enemy’s intelligence system;
(e) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy’s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

5.2.1 Visit and search
As an exception to Principle 5.1.2. paragraph 1 and in accordance with Principle 1.3 (2nd sentence), belligerent warships have a right to visit and search vis-a?-vis neutral commercial ships in order to ascertain the character and destination of their cargo. If a ship tries to evade this control or offers resistance, measures of coercion necessary to exercise this right are permissible. This includes the right to divert a ship where visit and search at the place where the ship is encountered are not practical.

5.2.10 Blockade
Blockade, i.e. the interdiction of all or certain maritime traffic coming from or going to a port or coast of a belligerent, is a legitimate method of naval warfare. In order to be valid, the blockade must be declared, notified to belligerent and neutral States, effective and applied impartially to ships of all States. A blockade may not bar access to neutral ports or coasts. Neutral vessels believed on reasonable and probable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be stopped and captured. If they, after prior warning, clearly resist capture, they may be attacked.
dmitry
June 1st, 2010 @ 1:46 am

Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality

5.1.2(3) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search, capture or diversion.

5.1.2(4) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they
(a) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) are incorporated into or assist the enemy’s intelligence system;
(e) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy’s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

5.2.1 Visit and search
As an exception to Principle 5.1.2. paragraph 1 and in accordance with Principle 1.3 (2nd sentence), belligerent warships have a right to visit and search vis-a?-vis neutral commercial ships in order to ascertain the character and destination of their cargo. If a ship tries to evade this control or offers resistance, measures of coercion necessary to exercise this right are permissible. This includes the right to divert a ship where visit and search at the place where the ship is encountered are not practical.

5.2.10 Blockade
Blockade, i.e. the interdiction of all or certain maritime traffic coming from or going to a port or coast of a belligerent, is a legitimate method of naval warfare. In order to be valid, the blockade must be declared, notified to belligerent and neutral States, effective and applied impartially to ships of all States. A blockade may not bar access to neutral ports or coasts. Neutral vessels believed on reasonable and probable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be stopped and captured. If they, after prior warning, clearly resist capture, they may be attacked.
Anonymous
June 1st, 2010 @ 6:49 am

heh.

Under international law, if those Islamists were not wearing uniforms (and in this video they are not) then they lose their International Law protections and may be tortured and slaughtered at will.

If they were, then they may be held until the end of the Jihad – be given three square meals a day, and see the Red Cross once a month.

But in order to strengthen International Law Israel needs to stop acting so pacifist toward their liberal and Islamonazi enemies.
Anonymous
June 1st, 2010 @ 1:49 am

heh.

Under international law, if those Islamists were not wearing uniforms (and in this video they are not) then they lose their International Law protections and may be tortured and slaughtered at will.

If they were, then they may be held until the end of the Jihad – be given three square meals a day, and see the Red Cross once a month.

But in order to strengthen International Law Israel needs to stop acting so pacifist toward their liberal and Islamonazi enemies.
Estragon
June 1st, 2010 @ 6:56 am

Not only were these vessels running the blockade, they had publicly announced their intention to do so. The IDF undoubtedly expected only the usual Kabuki theatre from the “activists” and were surprised by the aggressive resistance (after all, fighting trained commandos isn’t the choice of intelligent activists, but they’ve had a steady brain drain over the years).

Israel should just announce the next ships attempting to run the blockade will be sunk, and follow through with it. It’s not like they could ever please the Andrew Sullivans of this world, or should even waste the effort trying.
Estragon
June 1st, 2010 @ 1:56 am

Not only were these vessels running the blockade, they had publicly announced their intention to do so. The IDF undoubtedly expected only the usual Kabuki theatre from the “activists” and were surprised by the aggressive resistance (after all, fighting trained commandos isn’t the choice of intelligent activists, but they’ve had a steady brain drain over the years).

Israel should just announce the next ships attempting to run the blockade will be sunk, and follow through with it. It’s not like they could ever please the Andrew Sullivans of this world, or should even waste the effort trying.
Robert Stacy McCain
June 1st, 2010 @ 9:48 am

Good one, Smitty!
Robert Stacy McCain
June 1st, 2010 @ 4:48 am

Good one, Smitty!
Bob Belvedere
June 1st, 2010 @ 11:33 am

Dead. Solid. Perfect. Smitty.
Bob Belvedere
June 1st, 2010 @ 6:33 am

Dead. Solid. Perfect. Smitty.
Akatsukami
June 1st, 2010 @ 11:40 am

Randy Andy is soiling himself today, realizing that he’s no longer safe in confronting Jews.
Akatsukami
June 1st, 2010 @ 6:40 am

Randy Andy is soiling himself today, realizing that he’s no longer safe in confronting Jews.
Room 237
June 1st, 2010 @ 11:41 am

It still does not change the fact that Israel screw up. They walked right into the trap. The Islamists wanted an incident live on video tape and they got it.