A Statement To Ponder

Posted on | August 19, 2014 | 133 Comments

by Smitty

A hundred years ago, the first group of progressives concluded that this country needed to change in a big way. They argued explicitly for a refounding of the United States on the grounds that the only absolute in political life is that absolutes are material and economic rather than moral in nature.

That’s one of those statements that leaves one rubbing the chin. It seems plausible on the face of matters. However, having taken one’s eyes off the Almighty, much is possible. As someone wicked once said:

. . .All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Category: Culture

Comments

133 Responses to “A Statement To Ponder”

Protestors in Ferguson throw rocks at MSNBC’s Chris Hayes | Batshit Crazy News
August 19th, 2014 @ 1:27 pm

[…] Which makes TOM’s advice all that more relevant. Roger Simon blames the Great Society. Smitty blames Progressives for the mess we are in (well beyond Ferguson) It is all in the language […]
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 1:30 pm

You might want to think about that.

You could start by looking at the Greco-Roman heritage.

In fact, one of my pet theories is that commerce depends on the recognition of personal property and other rights, and probably has had more to do with civilization than anything else. Especially since you need mathematics to trade on anything but the most basic level.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 1:31 pm

Not really.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 1:38 pm

Ah, there we certainly agree!

I call them evangelical atheists myself. It’s not enough that THEY believe, YOU MUST BELIEVE as they do. No dissent allowed.

The moment they cross that line is the moment they become fair game.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 1:40 pm

“Same with the Church of Global Climate Disruption zealots.”

I see we’ve met some of the same sort of people.
DeadMessenger
August 19th, 2014 @ 2:10 pm

Accepted to who? John 14:6:

“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'”
DeadMessenger
August 19th, 2014 @ 2:15 pm

I can show millions of them. You just choose not to believe. Plus, strangly, they don’t answer to you. Matthew 7:6:

“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”
DeadMessenger
August 19th, 2014 @ 2:16 pm

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 2:21 pm

Why do you assume I am so insecure in my faith that a few words from your scripture will convert me?

Why must your morality be “higher” than mine?
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 2:35 pm

“Wisdom is where you find it.”
— Angus

“To attain knowledge, add things every day. To attain wisdom, remove things every day.”
— Lao Tzu

And one of mine.

“The only worthy faiths and beliefs are those freely chosen.”
—NeoWayland
Evi L. Bloggerlady
August 19th, 2014 @ 3:51 pm

Of course not (are you being serious)? Obviously every major religion has a morality structure. Even Satanism has its own morality (more of a childish reactionary response to Christian morality, but it is there). Go through the various philosphers of the world and they have their own morality structure. Heck, DC and Marvel comics have their own morality.

Much of it is not worth much.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:11 pm

Well, I wasn’t exactly serious.

I would like people to consider that for other people, Christianity isn’t the Top Morality out there. That doesn’t mean that those other people aren’t moral and ethical in their own way, it just means that the “normal” Christian touchstones aren’t going to work. And if Christians persist in using them, it’s just going to frustrate and annoy those other people.

Which is more important, converting me to Christianity or agreeing that Murder Is A Bad Thing? Do I have to be Christian to recognize that? The same goes for theft, fraud, and use of force.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:15 pm

Beyond that, we probably won’t agree on much. I’m against most of the “vice” laws although I do agree that underage children deserve special protection.

I’m also for the uniform rule of law. That means no waivers, deductions, exemptions, or special privileges.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:16 pm

I didn’t say that you lie, just preen. I’ve made no attempt to insult you. I have made observations about you and frankly, you serve little purpose here other than try to pick on people. The term “troll” fits you very well.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:16 pm

Sorry, but you are.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:17 pm

I’m not sorry. I’m me.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:20 pm

Scripture tells us that a small minority of people that walk the earth will find life eternal. The overwhelming majority of those that do not are willfully obtuse, such as yourself and Richard Dawkins, among many others.
I saw from the beginning that trying to convert you to anything other than what you cooked up inside that infinite space between your ears was futile. Like so many, if it doesn’t fit your own pseudo-intellectual frame work it isn’t worth the time. It will go hard for you in the end.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:22 pm

The more you post here, the more you reveal your own grave ignorance. You know so little about the philosophy of western civ and how it developed that it isn’t worth discussing anything with you. I engage in mission work, but not on the willfully obtuse.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:24 pm

You claim to not be an atheist, but the more I see you post the more I’m forced to conclude you are operationally one.
Your last sentence is the height of idiocy. No one thinks you are insecure in anything. You’re feet are set in concrete and unless what is said fits your pseudo-intellectual frame work, it’s wrong.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:46 pm

I assume you want to ignore the name calling you’ve done. You’re right, it’s very silly behavior.

The thing is, I’ve told you what my purpose here is. I don’t want the modern liberal/progressive mindset to govern. I’m not thrilled with the conservative mindset either, but I can work with it.

That being said, I want the strongest allies possible.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:54 pm

“And if Christians persist in using them, it’s just going to frustrate and annoy those other people.”

I could throw something poetic at you, like how Dawkins could never appreciate the knife edge of starlight on a moonless, winter desert night. But it’s not necessary.

You judge me by the precepts of your faith. Which wouldn’t matter in the least except you demand I bow before you religion. Or at least show the proper deference.
A Statement To Ponder | That Mr. G Guy's Blog
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:57 pm

[…] A Statement To Ponder. […]
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 4:59 pm

*grins*

Trade. Immigration. Tolerance.

Those distinguish a growing civilization from a declining one.

If you don’t believe me, just take a look at the trade routes. When the routes grew, the connected civilizations flourished.

And of course that implies that if you run from what I’m saying, your part of civilization won’t flourish.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:05 pm

No, not an atheist. Just not a Christian.

More importantly, while I believe that faith and religious practice are absolutely vital on an individual scale, it’s the worst kind of tyranny on the scale of a society.

I could give you pages of proof but it all boils down to “competition keeps us honest.”
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:08 pm

You might consider why Dead Messenger tries to control my behavior through scripture.
K-Bob
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:19 pm

Depends on who is doing the “accepting.”

Fortunately, most religions have a similar regard for what is and what isn’t moral..After all, a moral teaching that flies in the face of law or reason simply won’t last long.

This is why religions that ban “interest” as being immoral all have loopholes that allow interest to be collected under another name.

Also, a religion that condones immoral things is a feral beast, and all who live under it are living in constant fear. The jihadists are the ultimate expression of that fear and to what lengths people are willing to go to get on top of the violence curve (i.e., by being more ultra-violent than the next guy).

Islam spread rapidly in the sixties and seventies because it suited the poor. Now it is in early stage collapse as people fear it more than believe anything about it.

Morality is received lore from theological sources. Ethics is the application of reason to the question of decency versus the indecent, and proper behavior versus improper. The overlap is close enough between them that Ethics is often used to justify Morality and vice-versa.

Someone like Aquinas or Augustine could show you exactly how any moral precept is supported by The Ethics.
Mike G.
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:23 pm

But dude, in all this back and forth, you haven’t told us what or who you believe in. Hell, for all we know, you bow down to the “Rat God” every evening before you eat your cheese.
K-Bob
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:24 pm

I’d argue a bit with the formation. Too many people confuse Morality and Ethics. But fortunately, confused or not, Morality is not something that flies in the face of either logic or reason.

Also, human construct or no, it lies independent of politics, the same way mathematics does. No gun can make ?=3, and no dictator can make murder moral.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:31 pm

“Fortunately, most religions have a similar regard for what is and what isn’t moral.”

On some things yes. On many others, no. My path has a different view of casual sex and homosexuality than yours does. I also place a greater value on an experienced faith rather than a received one.

“Morality is recieved lore from theological sources.”

Not exactly. One of my “parlor tricks” is showing how it’s possible to build an acceptable moral system from some very selfish assumptions.

Ethics is the application of reason to the question of decency versus the indecent, and proper behavior versus improper.

I really disagree with you there. I prefer “ethics is the application of morality.” I don’t think you can define “decent,” “indecent,” “proper,” and “improper” without morality. I would question if our definitions would match, and whose definitions we should use. And finally, why should we use those definitions?
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:36 pm

Wow I had this great answer and then I think you changed stuff. This isn’t the post I responded to.

Morality doesn’t depend on logic or reason. More the opposite in fact. We justify it afterwards of course.

I’d say that when we try to apply morality to others, it’s the very heart of politics. That’s when it’s all about control.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:40 pm

There are people that are regulars here that do not “bow before your religion,” but they don’t act like preening pseudo-intellectuals either.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:42 pm

I don’t run from the facts. I know why western civ is in steep decline, and you don’t have the slightest. So far you’ve had nothing but trollish behavior to offer.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:44 pm

She’s not trying to control anything. I think she realizes that trying to get you to see truth, other than that you’ve constructed in that infinite space between your ears, is futile. She is, however, warning you of the end that will come to you by being willfully obtuse when it does come to the truth.

I did not say you *were* and atheist. But I do say that operationally, you are. I really don’t expect to understand what I mean by that.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:44 pm

I think you’re the first one here who asked me what I believe. You deserve a good answer. But this really isn’t about me, it’s about us finding common ground.

So to start with:

I call myself pagan because I don’t have a better term. I’m polytheistic and pantheistic. On alternate Thursdays and every third Tuesday I might admit to being panetheistic with an animism bent as well. On the 13th of the month, I’ll tell you (truthfully) that the label isn’t really all that important, only the manifestation.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:46 pm

My path involves recognizing and celebrating the natural cycles in ourselves, in the world around us, and in the worlds we touch in our dreams. I seek the Divine in human, Nature, and machine. I want to find the synthesis between mankind and ideas, between faith and technology, between what was and what will be.

I believe that all things have a Divine nature. Life is the universe’s attempt to understand itself. I know that the totality of the universe is too vast for me to comprehend. So there are godmasks that I turn to for understanding, guidance, and strength when mine is not enough. I know that these godmasks are only representations and gateways to Divinity, not Divinity themselves.

There’s more, but it really doesn’t answer your question. I really do think that finding common ground is more important than anything else I could tell you about me.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:51 pm

What can I say?

I don’t agree with Christianity as the default moral setting. Or any other religion either, but there aren’t that many of them here. With the exception of a few visitors here and there, they don’t want to inflict their assumptions on anyone else.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:54 pm

Correction.

Western Civ isn’t in steep decline.

It’s in a correction phase. Necessary, messy, uncomfortable, but still continuing.

I suspect for some it will be painful.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 5:59 pm

Her truth and her belief.

Not mine.

There is not a single other important thing that I wish people here would understand.

Your faith and your belief is a matter between you and the Divine.

Not between you and a neighbor you think is sinning. Talk about beams and motes.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 6:03 pm

There is not a single thing you need to understand more than that a Christian, knowing where you are headed, has an obligation to warn you. If you don’t like that, then you can take it up with your creator at your final judgment just before you are hurled into the lake of fire.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 6:04 pm

And, that, is one of the more ignorant statements that has been on this blog by any troll. To say that says, loudly, that you are not paying any attention at all.

Get out of that self constructed fantasy world and come out into reality. It will do you good.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 6:12 pm

So sure are you?

You have no idea how tempting it is to go into Yoda-speak mode with you. And it has been for some time. I have to keep biting my lip.

Still, I’ve been noticing that when you run out of things to say, that’s when you go after the person instead of what they say.

I’m a bit of a history buff. I can’t tell you how many times people were convinced that the total collapse of civilization was near. Going back almost 2500 years in fact. Longer still if you count some of the ancient Oriental stuff.

I like my odds.
NeoWayland
August 19th, 2014 @ 6:17 pm

You do realize that This Side, my beliefs on the afterlife are just as valid as yours, don’t you?

You have to take everything Beyond on faith. Just as I have been doing.

I’m just not taking your faith. And you’re taking that personally.
smitty
August 19th, 2014 @ 6:39 pm

For a glance at the world, no.
K-Bob
August 19th, 2014 @ 7:30 pm

Yes, “exactly.” You have no parlor trick here: morality comes from religion, pretty much by definition. You’re confusing that with Ethics. like nearly everyone does.

Your aren’t “really” disagreeing with me on the definition of Ethics. You’re disagreeing with the actual definition of Ethics. Making up an idiosyncratic language is fine, but you can’t use it for anything in a debate.

Yes you can define those “things” in The Ethics. It’s what that branch of philosophy is all about.

Also the “why” which is actually obvious to nearly anyone taking up the topic.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 7:33 pm

You like your odds because you have an arrogance born of utter ignorance.
K-Bob
August 19th, 2014 @ 7:33 pm

“Morality doesn’t depend on logic or reason. More the opposite in fact. ”

Absolutely false. No wonder you’re so confused on the topic.

Until you get your head straight on the basic terms, you can’t even make sense.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 7:36 pm

And you, as usual, are wrong. As a Christian I have an obligation to warn you where your stupidity is going to take you. I have no obligation to convince you of the end of your stupidity. I care that you are acting stupidly, but when you stand in from of Christ the one and only time you see Him, you will become aware of just where your arrogance has taken you. You *will* kneel, but then it will be too late.

Enjoy your delusions, while you can. When you suddenly find yourself immersed in unbearable heat and darkness that can be felt, you will then remember these posts and realize it didn’t have to be.
K-Bob
August 19th, 2014 @ 7:36 pm

The troll can’t hold a position long enough to make any sense. It’s just arguing for argument’s sake.
Quartermaster
August 19th, 2014 @ 7:39 pm

He’s a troll and he’s beginning to get obnoxious. He starts like he’s going to be reasonable, then goes off into incoherence. When you tick Paul off, you’ve gone a long way on the obnoxious scale.I wish Wombat would swing the hammer.
Bob Belvedere
August 19th, 2014 @ 7:50 pm

The reason Progressives of the past can be tied directly to the Progressives of today [or any generation, for that matter] is that they both grew out of the same Ideological root: Leftism.

That being a fact, it also ties them directly to every other form of Leftism. The wrapping on the product is different, but the product inside is the same.