“Especially important is the warning to avoid conversations with the demon. . . . He is a liar. The demon is a liar. He will lie to confuse us. But he will also mix lies with the truth to attack us. The attack is psychological, Damien, and powerful. So don’t listen to him. Remember that — do not listen.”
— The Exorcist (1973)
“Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
— Romans 1:29-32 (KJV)
It bothers me only a little to admit that a lot of modern Christian writing is wretched and unhelpful when it comes to relationships. The Gospel of Niceness, as I call it, tends to produce a saccharine G-rated rhetoric that isn’t much help to people dealing with the unmitigated horrors of modern life. There are people out there traumatized by what they’ve lived through and terrified by the world around them, and the saccharine G-rated Gospel of Niceness does not speak in a language that all these hopelessly broken people can understand.
What happens, not surprisingly, is that these broken people reject Christianity because (a) the church isn’t talking to them in a language that helps, and (b) the sin-filled world talks to them in a language they understand, even if it doesn’t actually help. All of this is preamble to one of the most Satanic tales I’ve encountered during my research into radical feminism. (You have bought a copy of my book, right?) What happened was that I was searching for “heteronormativity” and found “When heteronormativity means there are no other options”:
When you’re growing up in conservative Christian purity culture, your relationship options are limited. True, there are a variety of beliefs on the rules for relationships; some communities reinforce courtship, others have very stringent rules about what is acceptable behavior at different stages of relationships. But within those muddy waters of relationship rules, purity culture has the same constant: save sex for your heterosexual marriage, and marry for life.
The ideal relationship is something you’re supposed to strive for. The image of a beautiful heterosexual couple, smiling and in love, telling their story of first romance, first kisses till death do they part, is a powerful one. That’s the success story. If you can find romance once, only “give your heart away” once, and for a lifetime, you have won the game.
And while this idealized image doesn’t have the same high standards in the rest of American culture, it still exists: heterosexual marriage, for life, is one of the marks of adulthood, of success and maturity. …
When I was a Christian, I was the kind of repressed queer person that didn’t allow myself any other options. . . .
Hmmm. Check the sidebar profile:
This blog has a generalized trigger warning for discussions of sexual, physical, mental, and spiritual abuse.
Tor is a queer apostate survivor of abuse.
Pronouns are “they/them”
They live in Oregon, and are currently working on a book about their experiences with abuse, Christianity, and their dealings with trauma.
“They” is actually a she, but this is a minor quibble, because up there on the top bar of her blog is “My Story,” and a thoroughly horrifying story it is. “Generalized trigger warning,” indeed. There is just no way the G-rated saccharine Gospel of Niceness can address Tor’s life experience.
She describes being raped at age 9 by her brother who was then 15. This brother subsequently was prosecuted for another sex crime (he is a registered sex offender) and, because of the hostility between Tor and her brother, Tor is alienated from her family, to say nothing of Tor’s queer apostasy. Here, go read this part of Tor’s story. (“Generalized trigger warning.”) You’re going to need something a whole lot stronger than the Gospel of Niceness to help somebody like Tor.
The passage from Paul’s epistle to the Romans quoted at the top of this post is part of a longer sequence that is most famous for verses 26-27, but I like the way it concludes in verses 29-32 because there, tucked away amid that grocery list of heinous evil is “disobedient to parents.” Sometimes I point that out to my kids, when I need to remind them that they are also Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.
The Gospel of Niceness too seldom reminds kids of that, as if kids are too stupid to look around them and notice the evil that other kids do. Or to look in the mirror and recognize that, yes, they are sinners, too. Because I was a notoriously bad kid — in the old days, before “self-esteem,” teachers didn’t mince words about bad kids like me — I was never under any illusion about my sinful condition. I was a natural-born “behavior problem” if ever there was one. Thank God they hadn’t come up with the diagnosis ADHD back then, or I’d have been doped up on Ritalin by age 4. As it was, paddling was the main form of “therapy” administered by the education system, and I know I thoroughly deserved every one.
Anyway, I was reading another post of Tor’s called “The demon of demon paranoia,” in which she scornfully dismisses a pastor:
I define my childhood religion as a bit of Baptist legalism, mixed with Penecostal Holy Spiritism, a smattering of evangelical culture, all under the belief that God is some kind of magical genie who directs and takes care of every little thing we do.
When we moved up to the area we live now, we started attending a nearby Foursquare church. The pastor was an arrogant, hard preacher . . .
His biggest hang up was demons. I first heard of Frank Peretti’s book This Present Darkness from him, and he considered the book Biblical. He had pamphlets on the demonic in the church office; he spoke out against the evils of Halloween and trick-or-treating. My mom already had some fear of demons being everywhere, had already stopped letting my brothers go trick-or-treating the year I was two, and she very easily was sucked into this pastor’s paranoia.
Evil is real, Tor. You might not like the way this “arrogant, hard preacher” dwelled on the subject of demons, but certainly you cannot deny that evil is real. And ask yourself this: Considering what you went through in your childhood, was your mother’s “fear of demons being everywhere” irrational? Was it not the case that there was evil in your home? And isn’t it possible that, providentially, God sent this preacher to your community to warn about demons that were actually there?
People laugh at me for believing in the reality of evil, but I’ve seen evil with my own eyes. Sure, maybe you don’t believe that evil is supernatural. Maybe you can explain all the evil in the world according to “science so called,” but am I the only one who notices that certain biblical prophecies about the proliferation of evil seem to be coming true in the 21st century? There are no accidents, Tor. It wasn’t an accident that I found your blog, and read your description of your condition:
You know what? I am a sexual abuse victim. Of course things suck. Of course everything is hard, and nothing is right. . . .
But you know what? I don’t owe the world my healing. I don’t owe it to anyone to make them feel better about what happened to me. . . .
I’m fucked up. I’m self-destructive, I’m fearful . . .On the days when God still gets back into my head I look at how perfectly everything lined up for my destruction and think God wants me to die. I’m fucked up to a level I don’t even talk about. I have coping mechanisms I have never heard anyone ever talk about. And maybe they’re like me; too shameful to talk about. Or maybe it’s me; alone in this sea of oh my god how fucked up am I.
No, you’re not alone, but God doesn’t want you to die, either. While it would be presumptuous for me to claim to know what God wants for your life, the fact that you wrote that in 2011 and are still alive today tells me that you are alive for a reason. There are no accidents, Tor. Whom God would destroy, no man can save; whom God would save, no man can destroy. Therefore, your existence — even as a self-declared “queer apostate” — must serve some purpose in the divine plan, if only to wake up those Christians who think the Gospel of Niceness is sufficient to help someone who is “fucked up to a level I don’t even talk about.”
When you notice the trackback to your blog and read what I’ve written, you’ll probably hate me, Tor, and that’s OK. But let me ask you, what do you think the odds were that (a) I’d be crazy enough to write a book on radical feminism, (b) that this research would lead me to your blog by searching for “heteronormativity” and (c) rather than dismissing you as just another crazy feminist, I’d actually take time to read your story and recognize your unique value? The odds against this sequence of events have got to be a million-to-one, but it happened.
There are no accidents, God exists and, yes, evil is very real. Here’s the end of your post about demons:
I still am afraid of mirrors (mostly when it’s dark), I still see silhouettes when my sleep schedule gets too erratic. I still have nights where I’m awake for hours with the most horrible sense of my own guilt, afraid that demons have taken hold of me, and God hates me, and I am the worst sinner in the world. Fear pervades my life, I live under the weight of nightmares, flashbacks, and body memories, and a constant sense of foreboding, all because of this. Those are my “demons” now.
Let me repeat something I wrote in January:
Satan is the Father of Lies (John 8:43-45). Satan is the false accuser (Revelation 12:9-11). Satan constantly tells us lies about ourselves and lies about God. If you listen to that satanic voice, you will drive yourself crazy, because the lies are contradictory. Satan will tell you whatever you want to believe, whatever it takes to destroy you. Satan will tell you that your sins are so wicked that God cannot possibly love you. Then Satan will tell you there is no such thing as sin. Satan will tell you that good is evil, and evil is good, and that you should do evil because that will make you happier than doing good. Most of all, Satan tells us to reject God’s law, to instead make our own judgment of right and wrong.
This was the original lie of history: “Ye shall be as gods!”
Satan hasn’t changed at all. It’s still the same old lies — the demonic voice of the false accuser who wants to destroy us.
You survived, Tor. You survived for a reason. The voice in your head telling you that God hates you? Don’t listen to that voice.
ELB, you guys are pouring salt in Tor’s wounds. Your intentions are irrelevant if your words are wrong for the occasion.
Ruby is trying to show you where it hurts but people on this thread are too busy making sure their pet doctrines are asserted instead.
Maybe stop trying to help if you can’t avoid treading on Tor’s exposed viscera, huh?
I am a friggin cow. Tor should try branding…now that hurts!
“You’re like a surgeon who tosses a textbook at a patient instead of performing the actual surgery. Worse than useless.”
And Tor is like the gravely ill patient who grabs the surgeon by the collar and spits in his face. Perhaps understandable under the extreme circumstances, but hopelessly self-defeating nonetheless.
Indeed. And it’s only going to get worse. Much worse.
*Clicks bookmark*
Jeezum crow!! That’s a helluva top-of-page greeting for 06:00 🙂
Glad you appreciate the shock value. The first rule is always: GET THE READER’S ATTENTION.
Nothing you write matters, if they don’t read it.
As a longtime commenter, I appreciate your input. Do you know, however, that before I wrote this, I consulted the Book of Job? “No accidents.”
So there you are, concluding your criticism of me with a reference to Job, and I say, “Amen.”
This is not a story about me. My own sinfulness I confess, but the reason I consulted the Book of Job was to seek the exact words of the servants who reported to Job the disasters that had befallen him. “And I only am escaped alone to tell thee.”
When I think of all I have lived through — all I can say about the 1970s is, you had to be there to believe it — the miracle of surviving it all just amazes me. A lot of my friends did not survive, and so I feel an obligation to warn young people not to go down the road I traveled. I joke about some of that stuff, but it really wasn’t funny.
Personal friends survived what Tor has survived. I know women who were hospitalized more than once for suicide attempts before they ever graduated high school. What advice can I offer? Maybe not a lot, but “curse God and die” is not the correct answer to suffering.
When I saw this thread, I wondered what direction it would take. So I kept quiet for a while. As tempting as it is to give examples of happy atheists and unhappy Christians, that is not really the point, is it?
Playing spiritual three-card monte with someone in despair is one thing cults do to control their members.
Help the person put themselves back together. Then when they can make a choice, let them.
“The only worthy faiths worthy of freedom are those freely chosen.”
That’s one of mine, and I’ve yet to see it proven wrong.
Why do you think that someone is trying to force their beliefs on this woman? No one here wants to do that; in fact, they can’t. The people here want her to find the help that she needs.
It is written, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.” (John 6:44).
Nobody can force Tor to believe. This requires an act of God. (Though it seems as though a part of her does want to believe.) But loving and compassionate people can help her to get rid of the heavy, heavy load she carries around every day so that she can find peace and comfort.
You knew what direction this thread would take. This isn’t your first visit, after all.
Am I opposed to religious freedom? Does Christian evangelism amount to an imposition? I am not playing “three-card monte” and, in case you didn’t click over to Tor’s blog and read multiple posts (which I did), you may have overlooked something: She’s worked through her problems to the point now that, rather than being “in despair,” she is mounting a quasi-theological criticism of Christian belief, per se. It’s not despair, but a perceptible rage against God, that characterizes her mood now. And I absolutely understand her anger, but find that she is “without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful” in her attitude. She has a fiery sense of her own suffering and an appetite for vengeance and, however much this rage may help her maintain a fighting mood, I believe she is misdirecting her anger.
“…whom God would save, no man can destroy. ”
This is not quite true. God would save everyone, but he does not force Himself on us. Consequently, if we reject the salvation God offers, we destroy ourselves.
1 John also puts paid to the idea that a Christian is simply a “a sinner saved by grace,” which is a favorite meme of people that set aside scripture when it’s inconvenient.
A sinner is a person who sins habitually. A Christian does not. That does not mean that Christians do not sin, but it is not something they revel in, or do habitually, they fight against that nature because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. We are “being saved” by being conformed to the image of Christ, which takes time. That process ends in final salvation when the Christian is glorified, as Paul describes in Romans 8.
I’m sorry dicentra, but humoring someone along is neither loving nor compassionate; it is treating the symptoms instead of the illness.
Tor lashes out at all Christians as being the source of her problems, when they are not. But she does this because she wants to know the reason why God let this thing happen to her, and why He allowed her to be betrayed by the very people who were supposed to love and protect her, and who, in fact, claimed to represent Him. The fact that she seeks these answers is the very reason she chose to tell her story publicly on her blog.
The answers to those questions are available, and there are those who can bring them to her; namely, faithful, rather than false Christians.
Well said.
I’ve read your response several times as well the various comments which provoked it and must confess, I am confused. There is no question that Tor is a very broken individual. She has created a public space to express her anguish. She (ultimately) blames God for her travails.
It seems clear to me that the majority of commenters here are concerned for her; we read her words and see not merely theological error, but moreso our own failings, pain, anguish and brokenness. Some of us have endured great horror and evil, but were fortunate to find an antidote. You’re saying that our attempting to provide that antidote is wrong. Better to say nothing, I suppose.
Alas, empathy and sympathy do nothing to help this poor girl. Further, her blog indicates that her current attempts to find healing have been in vain. Why is that? Are we merely to sit and watch, believing that she is doomed to a life of mental anguish when we have something to offer?
This problem of evil and suffering in a world where there is an omnipotent and benevolent God in control is not exactly a new philosophical or theological issue. The answer for some of us here is that Christ suffered all of that evil on the Cross. Everything. Not just each sin of each person who ever lived, but all the collateral effects of those sins–every sniffle, every shed tear, every heartache and betrayal. In the context of Tor, I believe Christ suffered all the horror that she did as a little girl.
“It is finished.
You may disagree. You believe some other course of action will provide her with relief. But as I said in my only other comment on this thread, she appears to be seeking God in some fashion. He is there for her; she merely needs to reach for him.
+10^2000000
Gruffudd made a good Hornblower. I wish A&E had finished the series, but they stopped at the point he married the first time and makes Post Captain.
When I was a kid in the early 60s, I wondered how things could possibly get so bad as prophecy related. Now, sadly, I know. All too well I know. Time is quite short.
We have a sin nature that we are born with. That is true enough, and in fact, it is that sin nature that causes most of our problems.
James 1:14-15 says “…each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin…”
The problem with society is that it prefers not to call a sin, a sin. Which is why, many times when you ask someone “What do we call someone who doesn’t tell the truth?”, they will say “human” instead of “liar”.
“You know NOTHING of Tor’s life.”
Speaking in such terms is utterly silly and unserious. If you read her blog you can hardly know “nothing” of Tor’s life. Finrod, below, pretty much nails your problem.
AVE! Indeed!
It can get worse, much worse. But at least we kill you before we make you into Whoppers.
The language Tor uses tells me that she has bought into a big lie. People have said things that were probably true (wasn’t there, nor do I know the people to verify what was said) that does not comport with what her “friends” have told her. Such people that simply perpetuate the lies of Satan are not friends, nor are they, in the least, helpful.
WE need to be careful what we attribute to God. The Calvinist meme “God is in control” places all evil at God’s feet because if He is in control, He’s responsible for the holocaust and every abortion, just as two examples. God is certainly in charge, and because He knows the end from the beginning, He knows when to intervene in history to achieve His purpose. The statement “in the fullness of time God sent Christ into the world,” is just one example.
Inhabiting eternity he sees all of time, at the same time, so He does not have to “predict” anything. Eternity encapsulates time. That is why when God refers to Himself in statements like “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” he refers to Himself in the present tense. In eternity there is only the present tense. Time is as much a physical property of our limited existence as length, height and depth.
Stacy-
I have to confess that what you’ve written today, although directed at Tor’s situation (and God help her, her situation is truly sad), could just as well be written about me.
No, it’s not about being abused or suffering some grave evil perpetrated by someone else (thank God). My problem is pretty much self-inflicted.
But my response to my problem? The fighting my own impulses? Trying to stop my self-destructive behavior? And hating myself for failing?
Your words really hit home. And they helped me to kind of re-focus.
So, I hope your words do wind up helping Tor, but I can tell you they have helped me.
So thanks.
We’re all broken, man. Nobody escapes this world without damage, but like I used to tell my kids when we were hiking up the mountain: “There is no crying on the Bataan Death March.” By which I mean that we must cultivate mental toughness, learn to “play with pain,” because you can’t help others if you are a weeping puddle of emotion. Strength is a trait acquired through survival, and we must try to set an example to others of how to endure suffering with dignity.
Hey Quartermaster, Eat Me! Wait, I take that back!
It is strange how in the interests of an utterly false kindness to men, Christians are sometimes willing to relinquish their loyalty to the crucified Lord.
~ J. Gresham Machen, Christianity and Liberalism.
The problem with the feminine approach of soothing and validation, by saying ‘you didn’t deserve it’ or ‘I wish I could take it all away,’ or “i’ll not judge what you say,’ is this:
It doesn’t work.
Didn’t work for you.
Doesn’t work for anyone.
Its only utility is in therapy, in the first few visits, to establish rapport.
But then you must foment change.
Tor -and people who complain about those offering help- get stuck thinking that the part you describe is an end in itself.
It is only a beginning, and it should be brief.
Her blog makes it clear it has become her only therapy.
And it ain’t working.
I wonder if this is the same TOR I encountered on the UseNet in 1999? She was a survivor of child sexual abuse and a “Consumer Advocate” and nutty as they come. She used the nick EREBUS1845 and TOR1846. She supported a well known stalker (don’t they all) Diana Napolis aka “Curio Jones” That many of us ultimately exposed.
OMG here come the assorted loony hangers on
“Does Christian evangelism amount to an imposition? “
Yes.
By definition.
You didn’t select quotes from “now,” you selected quotes from “then.”
Except you want her to find help on the conditions that you sanction. From good Christians, of course. Just because at this point that might make the problem much worse should have nothing to do with it, right?
“You knew what direction this thread would take.”
Yes I did. There were some nice surprises though. So I am not going to give up on you yet.
DM: I suspect dicentra is using a wee bit of sarcasm with that comment!
It’s ok, Professor Reynolds did the same to me the other day with a comment he made.
If a person is dying of thirst, and someone offers them water, why would you quibble about the well that it comes from?
“Yes.
By definition.”
Bollocks.
By definition.
And if her healing will ultimately require letting go of her anger against God, what were supposed to do then?
But you don’t have any “pet doctrines” of your own, of course. If you did, you might be forced to question whether those ideas might be keeping her sick, or even doing her further harm, but how fortunate that you don’t.
“There are two kinds of people in the world, the conscious dogmatists and the unconscious dogmatists. I have always found myself that the unconscious dogmatists were by far the most dogmatic.” – G.K. Chesterton
See comment to Dead Messenger above.
As I said elsewhere, her ultimate issue is why God would allow this to happen at all, and why He would allow those He ordained to protect her to betray her. That is why she keeps circling back to God in her writing, and why she blames all Christians for what happened.
Who’s going to answer that for her? You? Only someone who knows God’s heart and will can know those answers. Correctly, that is, because as we see right here, not everyone calling themselves Christian is actually a Christian.
Furthermore, I counsel and help a lot of people who aren’t Christian and don’t become Christian. These people originally come to me because they are the ones that feel like God can help them, and I surely don’t turn them away. And also as I said elsewhere, it takes an act of God to become Christian. All I can do is model Christian love and understanding for them, and help as much as I can. Whether or not they choose to answer God’s call or not is their free choice.
No it’s not like an open wound or cut artery. I cannot wish those away nor cause them to magically appear by sheer self-pity.
No, you are out of your depth. You’re chasing Tor around with a scalpel but you have no idea what you’re doing.
Leave Tor alone. You don’t know how to help without inflicting more pain.
Just stop it.
Only if you create the most expansive definition of “impose.” Is asking a question an imposition? Is responding to an assertion of fact an imposition?
In truth, you wish to preclude those things in which you do not believe from a discussion by labeling them “impositions.”
If your definition is accepted, there are therefore no grounds for argument in the rhetorical sense. There are no grounds to contest the truth or falsity of any statements. In point of fact, your commentary here is an “imposition” by your own definition.
Please grow up.
Di, I see you comment on other web journals and generally agree with you. But your vehemence here on this thread is puzzling.
I’ve read your comments and I ache for your experience with your father. I did not have that; I cannot claim to understand that.
What I do understand is your remarks about being unable to see a loving Heavenly Father because of your own experience.
This is no criticism of you. I learned a long time ago that predicating one’s Christianity upon the actions of individual humans who claim to be Christian is a recipe for disappointment.
Christianity is not about humans. It is about Christ.
Those of us who comment here include failed, damaged, hurt people. We’ve found our solace. Accept that we wish to try to help someone else, even if such help comes only from our prayers.
Those prayers would be for Tor and for you, too, if you’ll accept them.
This^^^^^^^.
And some of the worst offenders IMO are priests themselves.
Ditto above.
Hah!. Tell that to ISIS.
smh……
Yep.
Neo, you’re still playing the same philosophical game you’ve always played. You come here and get what you expect then complain that you get what you expected.
Evangelism is anything but an imposition, by any definition. Unless, of course you’re simply a philosophical wanker that can’t get past his own intellectual limits.
My observation has been that people like Tor will not get help from any other than Christians. The people that she has turned to so far, have less than nothing to offer.
Neo is too limited to understand that we Christians don’t “sanction” the terms under which we work. His own self inflicted idiocy puts him in the same chair that those who “help” Tor occupy.
Given Zohydro’s avatar, I expect warped stuff from him.