Here are two sentences that caught my attention:
When word that [Cardinal Raymond Leo] Burke was on his way out [from the Apostolic Signatura] began circulating last month, it signaled that Francis would take major steps to reshape the church. It coincided with the selection of a new archbishop of Chicago, Blase Cupich, who Catholic progressives celebrated for positions like breaking with the American church hierarchy when it withheld its support for President Obama’s health reform law over questions of abortion and contraception.
The word you’re looking for is “schism.”
Papal infallibility relies on a pope being in full solidarity with the bishops of the church, and this week solidarity is not easy to find.
Decades of growing leftist influence within the Catholic Church, which John Paul II and Benedict XVI had temporarily suppressed, but could not ultimately stop, has now elevated an Argentine leftist to the papal throne. Catholic conservatives are and will continue to be purged from positions of influence. Conquest’s Second Law: “Any organization not explicitly and constitutionally right-wing will sooner or later become left-wing.” Catholics are seeing it confirmed.
This is now the Catholic church of the Berrigan Brothers, “Nuns on the Bus” and Dignity USA. Because conservative Catholics would not excommunicate the heretics when they had the chance, now the heretics are in control. The attempt to paint a smiley face on this disaster includes, e.g., an editorial about “how gay Catholics can lead the rest of the Church to a greater understanding of God’s truth.”
Ri-iiight. Your next pedophile priest scandal in 3, 2, 1 . . .
As a conservative Protestant, I have for years resisted the “road to Rome” solicitations of my conservative Catholic friends, mainly because of ancestral prejudice — coming from a long line of stubbornly independent-minded Calvinist types — but also because I knew something like this would happen to the Catholic church sooner or later. As far as I’m concerned Rerum Novarum is ample refutation of “papal infallibility.” It’s just bad economics and Quadragesimo Anno is arguably worse. If “Catholic social teaching” is divinely inspired, why is its fundamental economic theory so laughably wrong?
Seriously, my conservative Catholic friends, why do you think you now have a socialist Pope? And don’t deny try to deny the obvious truth: Francis is somewhere to the left of Bernie Sanders. You have a socialist Pope because, when you had a conservative Pope, nobody thought to hand him a copy of Human Action or The Mirage of Social Justice and say, “Here, learn something about how the economy really works.” Then get together a confab to produce a revision of “Catholic social teaching” that reflects actual facts.
Also, if you ever get another conservative Pope, excommunicate some heretics. Maybe burn a few of them at the stake, just to get the point across. But definitely excommunicate them. What’s the point of having a Pope, if he’s not excommunicating heretics?
I am aware of what you are getting at, and I see no reason to change what I said.
[…] The Liberation Theology Pope Proves Conquest’s Second Law. […]
Gentlemen, specifically Memento and Quartermaster, I think my IQ has went up several points by my discourse with you. My bottom line is that we have to unite as Followers of Jesus, and children of Father God in the face of the evil which is stalking the world. Our leadership has failed, and I would say, fallen away (if it ever was a part of the Body, doubtful). Disunity will be deadly, and I was disturbed by the dismissive attitude by some posters. Not you. We answer to one King, who is our Sovereign. We can’t lose, if we do.
A better title would have been…”Catholic Church Steps On It’s Collective Dick.”
I’m pretty sure judging by this post that you’re not a Roman Catholic. It’s quite a bit more complex than this, and I’d advise you to watch your words because you’re clearly quite out of your element here.
http://youtu.be/H0OaeMYTbs4
All good Pragmatist. I enjoyed it. Catch you on the flip side. Right on about the direction we need to be aiming!
At the end, supposedly some good news came out of the Synod.
I just wish we would get a stronger sense of what this Pope is about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRWH4zh8kzE#t=282
With all due respect, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 (you forgot the chapter number), begins with “So then” or “Therefore”, which indicates that the meaning of this Scripture depends upon the preceding context, which pertains to the second coming of Christ, and the revealing of the Lawless One. It does not pertain to the traditions of the Catholic Church, or any traditions in violation of God’s Word. Indeed, in Matthew 15:3, 6 and Mark 7:5, 8, 9, 13, Jesus responds to the Pharisees by condemning them for their traditions.
Again, with all due respect, the ONLY mediator, or intercessor between God and man is Jesus Christ. I’m sorry to say that I have to agree with QM when he says that Catholics are not Christians. Reliance upon dead humans, including Mary, is not Biblical. Praying to any human elevates the human to the level of God (in this case Jesus Christ, the Mediator), which is not only unbiblical, but blasphemous.
No. St Paul was telling the Thessalonians to follow both scripture and oral tradition, not what any protestant decided centuries later. The thing about his epistles is that they were written in response to queries from particular churches, to help with issues they were having.
Matthew 23:9. “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, who is in heaven.”
Can you share a Scripture that holds persona Christi as doctrinal please?
Hi. I live in PB, too. I’d like to see some Scripture that supports what Nan is saying, because I can’t find any. Not in context (preferably in the Greek) anyway.
Sola scriptura is not. Biblical. Neither Mary nor the saints is dead. If you recall, when the good thief recognized christ he said to him. Truly I say to you, this day you will be with me in paradise.
Lots of us Reformed hiding in non-denoms, you know. Election and pre-destination are fascinating (and wholly Biblical) topics. Not everyone “gets it”.
Might I urge you to read R.C. Sproul’s book “Chosen By God”? Fascinating. I would enjoy hearing any refutation of that. Brought me closer to God, in any case.
Plus, you know, Paul told us to expect a “falling away” or apostate Church. God is going to separate the wheat from the tares. Those of us that are “wheat” should fasten our seatbelts and expect a turbulent ride from here on out.
Mary and the saints you speak of (if, in fact, they are saints…this is God’s judgment call) have dead bodies, though all have spirits that either live in heaven or hell. If you have a Scripture that teaches it is ok to pray to anyone except God, please share it. And if God, in His Word, has indicated that Scripture is insufficient, please also share those Scriptures. Thanks…
The sentence in 2 Thessalonians starts “therefore”, which means that there is a dependency upon the prior context. As an example, do you go to a drive-thru window and the first thing you say is, “Therefore, I’ll have a cheeseburger with no onions”? No. But you might say, “I’m allergic to onions…therefore…I’d like a cheeseburger without onions.” The word “therefore” indicates a linkage.
You lack self awareness. You keep askg for bible verses and condemning things because they’re not biblical, yet you refuse to acknowledge that sola scriptura isn’t biblical. Furthermore you decide that Catholics aren’t Christians and have issues with our prayers to the saints but say its up to God…and don’t even notice the contradictory stance.
If you have ever asked anyone for their prayers, you’re a hypocrite to boot.
You also misunderstood prayers for intercession. These are not praYers to the saints but rather a request that they pray to Jesus on our behalf. I believe thats a wilful misunderstanding.
As noted I do not follow sola scriptura. It isn’t Biblical so if it has to be biblical you shouldn’t do it either.
Presumption is a sin.
You know nothing of MacDonald. Nothing.
I covet your prayers and do not mean that lightly. Thanks!
All I have asked is that you show me in God’s word any example of anyone who requested that a person no longer living on earth pray to Jesus on someone’s behalf. I also asked that you show me how sola scriptura is unbiblical. I nicely asked for some sort of proof for these things other than your opinion. You have responded with insults and false accusations. If you have no Biblical evidence for your position, then say so.
Where do we learn that presumption is a sin? And where is the presumption?
. . . not what any protestant decided centuries later.
But what a Pope decided centuries later is just fine and dandy.
Yea. Like I said, oooh boy.
Reading the comments seems to reinforce my genetic aversion to accepting party invitations from Catholic acquaintances during late August.
Knowing tat R.C. Sproul is a covenant Calvinist (a “John Calvin” Calvinist), and having seen much of his nonsense in the past, I am not interested. Calvinism lost a lot of its power during John Wesley’s time. He and his brother Charles had to deal with people like Toplady, who also held Sproul’s brand of Calvinism. Even though they refuted Toplady repeatedly, both philosophically (and Calvinism is mostly a philosophical system), Toplady continued his slander of both men.
Calvinism raises its ugly head at intervals of about 100 years. It has been repeatedly refuted and is, once more, reeling from the refutations and criticism. Calvinist Soteriology is blasphemous and at direct odds with scripture.
My leadership, Jesus Christ, has not failed. I get what you are referring to however, and I never looked to them because I know men will fail. The Pope will fail, and ecclesiastical organizations will fail as they are taken over by people who are not Christians. Churches, as we know them on earth, are just organizations of men. The true Church, which consists of all true believers, is headquartered in Heaven, and we don’t have to worry about that one failing as Christ promised “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
You Stacy make the internets fun, politics and religion both things one was told never to speak of in polite conservation, hehehehe those people had no idea how much fun both could be!
Every true Christian can intercede in prayer on behalf of any person currently living on the earth. I pray for other people all the time, but there is a very big difference between asking me to pray for you, and asking Thomas More to pray for you.
One does not have to accept Sola Scriptura to see what is wrong with what you are pushing. Appealing to “persona Christi” does not solve your problem. And the nonsense of praying to “saints” who may be sitting in hell, is simply beyond the pale. No one this side of death, has any idea who is and who is not in Heaven, with just a very few exceptions. We know Christ is, and we know the Apostles are, but only because of what God spoke through Holy men he moved to write His word. There are people I would like to think are there, but I will not know until I get to the other side.
You do not have the right to hold any doctrine that is directly opposed to scripture. Things like Sunday School are not biblical, yet it is OK as it does not clash with God’s Word. Praying to “saints” however is proscribed because it is an attempt to communicate with the dead. While their spirit exists, they were mortals who have passed from the scene here, and they are not God, and we are to pray only to God.
Once more, what have I posted that is blasphemous?
“Because conservative Catholics would not excommunicate the heretics when they had the chance, now the heretics are in control.”
True. But ignoring the corruption and decline in Protestant churches, all of which preceded the current condition of the Catholic Church, doesn’t strengthen your argument. You’re not Catholic because of family tradition and innate stubbornness?
“Then get together a confab to produce a revision of “Catholic social teaching” that reflects actual facts.”. This has already been done. It’s called the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Interestingly, this state of affairs had been predicted for centuries by Catholic saints and mystics.
My experience is similar. I have yet to find an RC who will answer a very simple question: Where Scripture and Tradition contradict, which is jettisoned and why?
“Tradition” is simply another way of referring to something which purports to be a new or additional revelation about God’s truth where that tradition contradicts or is extra to Scripture. There has to be a means of testing its validity other than relying upon a mere, “Because I said so” or “Because lots of our ancestors said so.” Where does the primary authority lie?
And having “coequal” primary authorities, i.e. Scripture and anything else isn’t a solution. It just dodges the question. It’s part of the rhetorical sleight of hand deployed in these discussions because the question is uncomfortable for RCs, I think.
(I hasten to add, I do not imply nor believe that all tradition is wrong. Traditions may be wholly valid and true interpretations passed on through generations. There must, however, be a means of testing that validity and truth and separating the wheat from the chaff.
so, you consider it sinful to ask family, friends, clergy, etc., to pray for you?
You cannot ignore the context of the entire chapter, nor can you ignore the reason for Paul’s second letter to Thessaloniki in the first place. Paul wrote his second epistle to that church because there were preachers misinterpreting his first letter regarding his discussion of The Second Coming and causing problems. His admonition in the second, after reiterating the truth based upon his apostolic authority, was to “listen to what I told you, not these people.” You cannot pull that verse out of its context and use to to support abandoning Scripture when “tradition” adds to Scripture or is contrary to it. In point of fact, such an argument is precisely what Paul was combating in II Thessalonians.
The problem philosophically with Reformed theology is that, when boiled to its essence, it removes Man’s agency and takes Man off the hook for his own Fall. It allows the excuse, “It’s not my fault you didn’t choose me,” to be uttered at the last Judgment” and makes God as arbitrary as any of the pagan deities in the Greek pantheon.
It depends on which Protestant Churches you’re talking about. The “liberal” denominations and wings of denominations are bleeding members right and left. The conservative denominations are growing.
I had no idea that when I would get up this morning, the Internet would tell me that I am not a real Christian because some folks say so. Never mind 2000 years filled with millions of Catholic martyrs, including those in Mexico who were executed by firing squad, calling out, “Viva Cristo Rey!” as they were slaughtered. Clearly, calling out Long live Christ the King with your dying breath is not Christian and a sure sign of hell in one’s future. Who knew? Now, I will assist in mass today and participate in 2000 year old rituals, some instituted by Peter the Apostle, who I now know was not a Christian, either.
Actually, it was predicted in the Bible long before that.
Yes, RS, it was. And Christ said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church, not that it would be easy.
And it has been noted that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of Bishops and Popes … but Christ’s Church still lives in the lives of Orthodox and Catholic true believers.
Man (and thereby, those things created by man) fails. Christ does not fail. Churches (meaning denominations or divisions of the body of believers) are constructs of man, not God. Thus, all ‘churches’ (meaning the organized hierarchy) are suspect and must be viewed with a skeptical eye. My friend QM and I have discussed this over a long period and my decision earlier this year to depart the ranks of the Roman Catholic Church and to become an independent believer in the Orthodox tradition of ritual and celebration (sans the Orthodox Patriarchy system, every bit as corrupt as the RCC) was partly driven by thoughtful and prayerful reflection on QM’s words to me, both in public in this comment section and privately via email.
That means a lot to me Paul. Not because of what I am, I’m just the messenger, but because of the work Christ is doing in your life. That I can be a very small part of that is quite satisfying. I’ll send you an email later as well.
There is a problem with the idea of Sola scriptura. There is much in the modern church which is good, which can not be found in scripture. Sunday School is the classic example, but you can add Bible Colleges, and Seminaries to that as well. Sola Scriptura would forbid those things, yet I don’t think Christ, or the Apostles, would condemn them. They would excoriate the local Churches for not doing there job, but that’s a different issue.
In the final analysis, we must have a touchstone that tells us when something is going out of bounds. The general revelation given in scripture is that touchstone. We MUST reject what contradicts scripture, or we set up God as contradictory. If God contradicts Himself, then His nature comes into question and we have no reliable way of knowing if we are getting of the road to the Kingdom.
Either we accept God’s word for what it is, or we are not Christians.
I look forward to it my friend.
In the heart of every true believer because that is where Christ lives and he is the author and finisher of our faith.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10
You will assist in rituals that were instituted about 15-1600 years ago, but none that were started by Peter. There are going to be many people that stand before Christ who will shocked when Christ tells them “I never knew you.” Martyrdom does not determine who belongs to Christ.
The Apostles would be shocked to find they were Roman Catholic, as you claim. It is particularly so since the Roman Catholic Church did not exist until the Middle Ages. The Eastern Orthodox have as much of a claim to being the original Church as the Roman Catholic Church does.
Reckon the homos and the commies and assorted other miscreants are whipping themselves into an orgasmic frenzy watching the Christian Right eat itself alive!
Meanwhile, #houstonwehaveaproblem …
http://www.christianpost.com/news/twitter-blocks-houstonwehaveaproblem-campaign-that-supports-houston-pastors-subpoenaed-to-hand-over-their-sermons-128171/
“Hoc est enim corpus meum” — so you’re saying that came 4-500 years later? Interesting.
That’s the trouble with becoming one’s own magisterium — once disconnected from history, it’s too easy to find the Scriptures proclaiming what you teach, and not the other way around.
I will offer my participation at Mass today for your union with the Church, and for the reconciliation of those actively working to do her harm.