Dear Time: Per The Bible, Churches Still Admit Sinners; Yet They Still Reject Sin

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by Smitty

I guess the relentless, nihilistic spiritual decay of Progress can’t help but project itself upon churches:

. . .the changing allegiances and divides in evangelical churches and communities over homosexuality. In public, so many churches and pastors are afraid to talk about the generational and societal shifts happening. But behind the scenes, it’s a whole different game. Support for gay marriage across all age groups of white evangelicals has increased by double digits over the past decade, according to the Public Religion Research Institute, and the fastest change can be found among younger evangelicals—their support for gay marriage jumped from 20% in 2003 to 42% in 2014.

This winter, EastLake Community Church outside Seattle is quietly coming out as one of the first evangelical megachurches in the country to support full inclusion and affirmation of LGBTQ people. It is almost impossible to overstate the significance of this move. EastLake is in many ways the quintessential evangelical megachurch–thousands-strong attendance, rock-music worship, Bible-preaching sermons. But pastor Ryan Meeks, 36, is on the front wave of a new choice. “I refuse to go to a church where my friends who are gay are excluded from Communion or a marriage covenant or the beauty of Christian community,” Meeks tells me. “It is a move of integrity for me—the message of Jesus was a message of wide inclusivity.”

Ryan Meeks is encouraged to re-read the Bible in general and the Roman and Corinthian Epistles in particular. The Bible is our compass; Christ is our course. Yes, we get off course from time to time, but the only one smiling when somebody in a leadership position declares a false course to be the new true is Satan. Sure, technology has afforded some brand new ways to get off course. Yes, all manner of folk have been in the doors of my church. Indeed, we’re not going all Jonathan Edwards on them Sunday for Sunday.

But Elizabeth Dias is welcome to swing on by any traditional Baptist church to discover (a) the unalloyed Gospel still being preached, and (b) Christians rejecting the sort of rot she’s peddling.

Who knows? A little repentance may find her, too, as it has me.

via Hot Air headlines

132 comments

  3. I know way too many churches, preachers, and congregations that are taking a stand against sodomites to put much faith in what the liberal media tells me. I barely consider most megachurches real churches in the first place. Next they’ll be telling us the importance of the fact that these new atheist churches are allowing gays in. Federalist did an article in August about how denominations that go pro-gay lose big: http://thefederalist.com/2014/08/21/how-to-shrink-your-church-in-one-easy-step/

  4. The fact that Grace exists for anyone who asks does not mean that the nature of sin is up for a vote. And that is the endgame. It is not about acceptance of people; it is about subjecting God’s will to human whims.

  5. One can always depend on Time to get the scoop, I’ll forgo characterizing what they’re scooping. Elizabeth Dias’s story confuses acceptance of sinners with acceptance of sin. An all too common mistake these days.

  6. So, does Ryan Meeks also endorse unmarried heterosexual couples living together and satisfying each other sexually outside of marriage? How does he feel about plural marriages? Or swinging? Bestiality? What about divorce; should the church endorse divorce for every reason people might come up with?

  7. I’m not familiar with Meeks past the quote here, but I’m leery of megachurches in general. I worry that they’re diluting the Gospel in the name of numbers.

  9. In general, I agree with you. You show me a megachurch and I’ll bet I can find you a preening, narcissistic “pastor” at the center of it.

  11. Well, yeah, but habitual sin (or any sin) should never be affirmed. And communion is only for saved sons and daughters of God. Of course gay people should be welcomed in a church. Like hospitals are for the physically sick, churches are for the spiritually sick. But if gays are looking for affirmation of their lifestyle, they shouldn’t find it in a church. Ryan Meeks is a heretic.

  12. The blasphemer and son of the devil? That Joel Osteen? He’s leading his flock away from salvation. He’s as bad as “Pastor” (cough, cough) Meeks. The Bible said there would be great apostasy in the end times, and here it is.

  13. Yeah, but offering communion to unrepentant habitual sinners is just wrong. Ryan Meeks ought to know that.

  15. You know, Smitty, I go to a megachurch. I didn’t want to, but God specifically sent me there. When I asked Him why, he said that some people had to have the light and bring it to others. So that’s what I do there, one person at a time. And I have to say, the pastor at no time waters down the Gospel, and his fire and brimstone sermons are my favorite.

  21. I’ve just read the Pope today has called gay marriage “ideological colonisation” while in The Philippines… Brilliant!*
    *My personal opinion of Francis fluctuates… Hat tip to “Quartermaster” for tipping me off to his “liberation theology”, (q.v.) leanings, so I always keep that in mind…

  23. I’m sorry, Z. That man stole from your grandmother, and took advantage of a well-meaning old woman. I know that you don’t consider yourself Christian, but know that there are good ones – true children of God – and criminals, apostates, heretics and other sinners who falsely claim the name. Please don’t hold the bad against the good. Jesus loves you, Z, regardless of those who make Him look bad.

    Edit: And let me just say, God will judge us each according to our deeds. Even though your grandmother gave money to a charlatan, she still stored up treasure for herself in heaven, where her treasure is eternal.

  25. There used to be a TV evangelist named Gene Scott. He had a church in California, and a show on satellite he bought time for on late-night local TV stations. He had some interesting ideas on the Bible, but was usually fundraising. He wouldn’t preach until the goal was met, but would take questions from viewers while he waited on the pledges.

    Someone asked if he had to contribute to watch, and Scott said “No, if I’ve taught you, you know what you owe – send it in! If I haven’t, you don’t owe anything, you listen once we’ve reached the goal.”

    Someone else complained they heard he had some antique cars that were very valuable, and why should they send him money? He answered, “Because it’s none of your damn business! If I’ve taught you, you know what you owe, that’s between you and God! If I spend your money unwisely, that’s between me and God, and he will deal with me harshly – but it’s not up to you!”

    Pretty refreshing. He also often wore a safari jacket and a pith helmet and just sat and talked to the camera.

  26. Depends on how you view it. In Matthew 9:12, Jesus said, “On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.” And, we know that the Pharisees rebuked Jesus for hanging with prostitutes and other sinners. So He was inclusive to the extent that He knew that sinners needed to hear His message.

    On the other hand, He also rebuked the Pharisees constantly because they were hypocrites, and frankly, those Scriptures are among my favorites. I love in Matthew 23:27 where He calls them “whitewashed tombs”. Jesus sure did have a way with words.

  27. Haha – good post. I never heard of that guy. I’m just flabbergasted that he said that God would deal with him harshly, when Jesus told the rich guy in Luke 18:8-23 to give up his stuff and follow His commandments, and the guy left sadly. And then in Matthew 19:24, He said, “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

    Seems like Gene Daddy would’ve thought things through a little more clearly.

  28. I totally agree with that. You don’t help someone by diluting the Message. If they don’t understand that they broke the law, they can’t possibly understand the ultimate judgment and punishment. And not just gays, either. All sexual sinners need to hear the same message. I don’t care whether you’re f–king your dog, your girlfriend, or your closest bud, you’re still a sinner in need of salvation.

  30. True, but “wide inclusivity” would mean all of us sinners who repented and were saved. Churches should have wide inclusivity, however, that does not extend to communion and approval of gay marriage, for pity’s sake! The Covenant is not about that; the Covenant is with the saved, who have rejected their former sinful lifestyle. If Ryan Meeks is not rebuked by the church’s elders and removed from pastorship (because he clearly has not read and understood the Bible), that church is apostate and true believers ought to run…not walk…away from it.

  31. You know what I love about Christianity? We can have a meaningful discussion of this stuff and no-one dies.

  33. What’s your point here? All are subject to judgment by God, but it is proper to call out evil where one sees it.

    Have you yourself read the Bible, I’m wondering.

  34. And you would be correct to question that. I question it, too. Christianity is not about money or any material goods. It makes me heartsick when people like this (Osteen and his wife) mislead people. From what I’ve read, they are more about me-me-me and less about glorifying God.

  35. Francis needs to study the Bible more and talk less. Apologies to Nan if she’s reading this, but I’ll call out the Pope’s heresy just as fast as I’ll call out the heresy of the Protestant who is the topic of this blog.

    Z, you are correct to reject unbiblical statements, whoever makes them.

  36. Hahaha! I guess that means I’m still gonna have my head in the morning when I wake up. I feel good about that.

  37. It’s because we’re rednecks down here, and no sermon is considered complete without a nice, healthy dose of sin condemnation.

    There are a least a few* people left in Florida who are not psychotic, lol!

    * Don’t know whether I’m speaking for the majority or not anymore, judging from news reports.

  38. That’s why the “wide inclusivity” was in quotes, that Meeks’ idea seems to run towards actions, not the repentence of sin.

  39. This provokes an interesting conversation on which drives religious orthodoxy more, the leadership or the people. A leader unwilling to change his ways is likely to see another leader picked from the flock. On the other hand at what point does that process subvert the religion itself?

    During the old Islamic caliphates there are examples of where a caliph was more interested in having flexible views on Islam in the name of holding onto power than in promoting a strict view. There are other examples of caliphs and sultans who had the power to enforce their own fundamentalist views but who in turn caused a reaction the other way when they died.

    In circa 1800 India there is a famous example of a strict Shia named (I think) Abdul Latif Shustari who came to Hyderabad to advance his prospects and was appalled at the syncretic nature of Islam in terms of its incorporation of Hindu beliefs and its laxity.

    In the early 16th century the Portuguese Inquisition was sent to Goa in India to terrified Portuguese colonists and close inquiries were made as to whether one boiled one’s rice properly or in Hindoostani style.

  40. All are subject. None are worthy to judge others. Not even Jesus. Forgive them Father, for they know not.

    You do not get to usurp God.

    Love thy neighbor is a COMMANDMENT.
    Do not bear false witness is a COMMANDMENT.

    When Jesus said Do unto others he didnt give an exception

    Instead of worrying if i read the bible, perhaps you should read yours more..

  41. “The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.” (Psalm 37:30) A righteous person will talk of judgment. He will not refuse to judge.

    “Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken. Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.” (Amos 5:14-15). How can you hate the evil and love the good if you refuse to judge? You can’t. You are sinning when you refuse to judge.

    Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:10 to “. . . be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” Why would Paul make such a statement if judging is wrong?

    In 1 Corinthians 2:15 Paul says, “But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.” Judging is not a sin; judging is a characteristic of being a spiritual person.

    Here Paul rebukes the Corinthians for NOT judging: “Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?” (1 Cor. 6:1-5)

    Turn in your Bible to Romans 16:17-18, 2 Corinthians 6:17, 2 Timothy 3:5-6, 1 John 4:1, Malachi 3:18, Revelation 2:2. God expects us to judge. Now I’m going to judge you: study the Bible so that you come to understand God’s will.

  44. Apologies… and Only you and God Know what. It doesnt matter.

    When we forgive each other. As we would want to be forgiven. Like Christ taught. Only then can we be free. Otherwise we are tied to the sins we commit..like a rock around our necks.

    When we justify our sins by judging others. We miss what Christ taught.

  45. After 6,000 years, heterosexuals no longer have a ritual that defines them. 1.5% of the population has reached over, seized something that didn’t belong to them, and changed it.

  48. Too many have bought into Rick Warren’s “business” model, wherein “growth” is elevated above repentance and discipleship.

  49. The progressives corrupt everything, not least because of their staffing our educational institutions.

    I live in the mountainous buckle of the Bible Belt, and have observed that legal abortion has made bastardy acceptable among purportedly socially conservatives.

  50. We do not judge people; only God may do that. We are called however to be discerning. That is, to judge actions, behavior and words. We know people by their fruits.

    All sinners are welcome to accept God’s Grace. That Grace does not change the nature of Sin, and any person who seeks to use Grace as a means to declare that what is contrary to God’s Word is somehow now acceptable to Him and who seeks to advocate for Sin within the Church is a tool of Satan seeking to destroy the Body of Christ from within.

    You seek to conflate loving one’s fellow man with celebrating his sin. Let us not forget Christ’s last words to the woman caught in adultery: “Go, and sin no more.” It’s those last words that everyone conveniently forgets when they condemn being “judgmental.”

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